Loving my tanker

[Red Nile]

So, I never really got into tankers much before enhancement diversification. But I started one up right after I6 as my new main hero in Storm Front, and I'm absolutely loving her. I don't feel weak at all. I feel like I can do my job as a tanker, and it's fun and challenging.

She's a fire aura/stone melee tanker, and she just got to level 27 yesterday. I do group most of the time, but haven't had any real problems solo. I hit hard, I just don't attack frequently enough to mow the enemies down like a scrapper. But I sure whallop them one at a time. I can take the alpha strike, taunt one side of the enemies, then punch healing flames if it really hurt, to stay on my feet. Fault knocks the entire group of enemies to the ground and briefly disorients them, buying me some time for my powers to recharge, my teammates to whittle down the enemies, and for me to fire off a second taunt on the opposite side of the enemy group.

I get hurt a lot, but rarely so much that my teammates' support doesn't even the score. Aggro is a challenge to keep, and sometimes teammates die when I'm unable to gather it all to myself and they can't handle the aggro they draw off of me. But it's fairly rare.

And all of this is good. Getting hurt, teammates occasionally getting taken out...it means tanking is a challenge. It means my controller friends in the group don't feel useless, they can contribute. And the reduced effectiveness of controllers means that they can't completely dominate enemy spawns either. They can buy a brief reprieve from the damage while the team whittles the enemy away, but they're very happy for a tanker to be there to scoop up the aggro when the holds wear off. The controllers and tankers aren't stepping on each other's toes any more. The defender buffs and debuffs are always welcome because I'm not at my resist caps. And if I'm not getting buffed, I can still tank just fine because that means I have more damage dealers on the team to take the enemies out faster.

Now, I don't know about the other flavours of tankers. And I'm not sure if enhancement diversification was the way to go, though I agree with the general principle that SOs were too powerful. Maybe it gets worse in the higher levels. But for my tanker, so far, I think I'm liking Statesman's vision of the game, and the changes that have been made to rein in the power levels of the heroes.

[Greblaja]

That's a great write up. Thanks for posting that.

As a long time tanker, I'm still trying to get used to the new reality of tanking. It's still hard for me to govern my agro'ing, that is, to not always try to grab the attention of the whole spawn (some instincts die hard). Playing lots of low level tanks has helped me somewhat, and so has playing brutes: I'm slowly getting used to what tanks can and can't do anymore. I still am not sure tanks are where they are supposed to be, but I figure it this way: get used to this new reality, and if they relax back some of the reductions, that will be gravvy.

I'm glad you're finding your tank fun - it gives me hope that maybe I'll eventually find that level of enjoyment, too.

[Remianen]

I'd have to disagree with you on one point.

While yes, these changes may very well make controllers more useful, I think the cost was too high. As it stands now, a decently built SCRAPPER can do a tanker's job and do it far better. You don't need to hold aggro for an interminable amount of time if the mobs are dying inside of 15-30 seconds. In that case, if you have a controller who can spoon feed you mobs, why have a tanker when a scrapper will make things go faster? Remember how perception shapes reality.

I only have a handful of tanks, the highest of which are 16 (inv/mace and fire/EM). When I log one of them in, within 5 mins, I have 2 or more group invites. But, I've found, that I can't take on a full group spawn without the full attention of the support classes in the group. That seems a bit much. My scrappers can take on a full group spawn and SUPPORT THEMSELVES. Even in a task force environment (which I just did with my BS/regen (Synapse) and previously did with a katana/regen (Moonfire) and MA/regen (Sister Psyche)). This, after THEIR capabilities were slashed as well. This on tankers with enhancements that are NEVER even level (always at least +1) in their defenses, which are always max slotted before their attacks are touched (doesn't take long nowadays heh). I feel tougher as a scrapper than I do as a tanker and personally, I think there's something wrong with that.

I don't begrudge you your joy in playing your tanker. I enjoy playing my tankers too, in fits and starts. But I often get frustrated that I can't TANK as well as a scrapper, without an entourage of support classes. I think ED was overkill. If you want to add value to an archetype's skills, tune CONTENT to make those skills valuable. Don't disembowel certain ATs (or ALL of them even) to accomplish it. Harder hitting mobs would add value to defenders (both healing and debuffing - after all, misses do ZERO damage) and controllers (the ability to stifle a mob would be far more welcome). At the same time, you make those ATs more attractive to folks who previously wouldn't seek them out (to play them). Right now, on the servers I play on (Victory, Virtue, Guardian, and Infinity), there is a serious dearth of tankers being played at low levels. And CoV isn't to blame, this has been the case since I5 hit Test, just about.

As far as Statesman's vision is concerned, well, I don't think he has one. I think he'd like to start over and forget the 'imbalances' (real or perceived) that happened in the first year of CoH but he can't. So he did the next best thing. Vision implies foresight and I can't help but remember that this is the same guy who once said he had no idea hasten and stamina would be as popular as they are (or were). Anyone who had ever played a major MMO prior to CoH could've foreseen that ('haste', 'clarity', 'turbo', etc).

[Jade_Dragon]

ED really shouldn't have a major impact on any character prior to level 30. I felt almost no impact from it at all, and most of my characters are 28-32. There were a handful of powers I had to shift Enhancements around in, but most of them already had 3 SOs, not 4. Even Dispersion Bubble, which I had six slotted, had 2 End Cost SOs. And I just left it alone. (That 4th slot may be a waste, but I'd just like to have it for concept's sake)

I5 had the greater impact. But my Tanker has always been built for offense anyway. Remianen said that he never even touches his attacks until his defenses are maxed out. But as he said about Scrappers, you don't need to hold aggro if the mobs are dying. The secret is not to think of the Tanker as a tank, but as a Tanker. There's no "meatshield" in CoH, the Tanker is there to draw the bad guys to himself and slowly, but methodically, put the beat down on them.

I admit I haven't really grouped with Blue Diamond since I5. Not to the extent that I did before, anyway. But he was always extremely well protected, to the point where I could concentrate exclusively on slotting attacks, and still have more than enough defense to solo. I still solo just as easily, I just have to turn on my toggles instead of just wading through on nothing but the passives. Of course, this is a concept build, and I know not everyone is going to want to concentrate on offense to that extent. But it works, and I'm sure it'll work for the folks who just balance offense and defense. (And without prior experience, I'm sure that's what Red Nile has done)

Frankly, I feel sorry for the people who want to build a "pure" meatshield. The problem is, defense just doesn't scale linearly like damage does. 5% defense added to 10% is nothing, added to 90% pretty much cuts the little you are taking in half. (I'm using the word "defense" as a generic here, not referring to either Def or Res) As long as it works that way, defense will always take forever to ramp up, and will never be any better than "adequate" even at the high levels.

I dunno, maybe the balance will be found, and with ED defense can be raised a bit to give the low levels some relief. Hopefully Defense (capitalized here) will be balanced better against reds so it isn't seen as the totally useless redheaded stepchild of damage mitigation. Then hopefully you'll be able to slot defense and get as much proportional benefit as damage.

The solution is NOT to increase MOB damage. They tried that, and it killed Blasters and Defenders. Remember that incoming damage is balanced for you, so you have a responsibility not to let it go too high. Unless you like running your missions all by yourselves while the squishies leech by the door.

[Akamaz]

I love my tanker too.

so there

[Remianen]

Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon

ED really shouldn't have a major impact on any character prior to level 30. I felt almost no impact from it at all, and most of my characters are 28-32. There were a handful of powers I had to shift Enhancements around in, but most of them already had 3 SOs, not 4. Even Dispersion Bubble, which I had six slotted, had 2 End Cost SOs. And I just left it alone. (That 4th slot may be a waste, but I'd just like to have it for concept's sake)

That first sentence is wrong JD and you know it.

You're going to tell me that there's no difference between a 3 slotted fast healing/quick recovery/stamina/unyielding/integration/fire shield/plasma shield, etc and a 6-slotted version? No difference between attacks slotted with 5 damage and 3 damage + some combo of other types?

Let me explain what I mean. My scrappers were built to a concept that resembles a 'regen tanker' kinda setup. Their secondaries were heavily slotted, moreso than their primaries. The theory was, since scrappers inherently do more damage than tankers and regen is extremely powerful by itself (if you can't outdamage a mob's regen, you're not going to kill that mob...bring more people!), made for a VERY tough character. Survivability was insane and even at the Hollows levels, people commented on how tough I was to kill (often the last one standing). My goal was to create a character that did not require constant attention from the support classes and could thrive on either an aura heal or no outside healing at all. And they did. Doing my own missions on Rugged, my health bar would only move an appreciable amount when I took a boss's alpha strike and even then, I rarely had to bother with reconstruction unless I was facing more than 1 boss. I don't have a single character over 30 and I can tell you that ED gutted my concept. Now, I have to try to make do with active healing instead of passive, my health bar has seen yellow more times in the last month than it had in the previous 5. They're still tough, no doubt, since the slots 'lost' from the secondary went right into attacks and they can still be main tanks in task forces (which surprised the hell outta me). But it's not the same, really. I'm not as self-reliant as I was, often having to eyeball my health bar with a finger on an inspiration or reconstruction key. I'd consider that a 'major impact', personally.

None of my tankers are 'meatshields'. They just concentrate on shoring up their defenses while working toward access to DOs. There's 10 slots between level 1 and level 12. Putting those slots in TI/Unyielding or fire shield/blazing aura does nothing to diminish a character's overall balance and indeed, allows that character to spend time putting slots into their attacks using enhancements that actually make a measurable difference. Here's a good example of that. My ice tanker's build pre-ED and her ED compliant build now. Not a whole heckuva lot of difference, is there? My tankers are built with defense first but with a nod to offense (after all, the ONLY reason I rolled tankers to begin with was their being the polar opposite of Warriors in EQ. Now, that difference is shrinking, though not nearly enough to make them similar), since it's a requirement for me that they be able to solo at least decently.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that the effects of ED are easily apparent from level 12 on, where it's possible to overslot a power which would pretty much force a respec if you actually want to get the most out of the powers you selected. Like I said, I still like my tankers. I just can't play them for extended periods due to personal frustration. By contrast, I can play my scrappers and heck, even my DEFENDERS for 12+ hour stints, with no issues. I love doing TFs (probably my favorite part of the game) but I honestly don't think I could stomach doing another (Flameraven's done Positron) with things as they are now. I don't like the fact that I probably couldn't handle a full TF spawn without being babysat by someone else, when that's not the case for my scrappers. I don't feel like a combat modified armored Hummer, I feel more like a desert modified Jeep. I don't think that should ever be the case.


But maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

[Red Nile]

Jade's point is that the ED limitations don't really affect you until you start slotting SOs at level 22. The cap on bonuses from enhancements only hits once you get 6 DOs or 3 SOs of the same type in a power, and then only to a minor amount. It's once you get a 4th SO worth of enhancement in a power, which is only possible after level 22, that the ED effects take shape. It's up to you whether you want to 6-slot as you always did, then respec once you get into SO range. But ED doesn't really affect the lower levels at all in a strict sense.

Now, I know what you mean. If you like to build your characters so they won't need a respec, then you likely wouldn't 6-slot them to begin with. And that's where ED would have an effect on your build before 22.

Your issue that you used to not need any help to absorb any level of damage that you would reasonably come across during a mission...well, that just seems broken to me. Why bother having inspirations or teammates if you don't really need their help? What role do you envision defenders and controllers having if tankers are so impervious as to not need them?

Personally, I feel that my tanker can tank better than any scrapper can at my level. Teams can get by without a tanker, but a tanker makes things run easier and smoother. Which is about where I think it should be. No one AT should be absolutely necessary to a team, but none of them should feel useless either. Controllers and tankers (even multiple tankers and other tankers) used to step on each others' toes all the time, make each other feel useless. That's not the case any more, to my experience.

[Remianen]

Originally Posted by Red Nile

Jade's point is that the ED limitations don't really affect you until you start slotting SOs at level 22. The cap on bonuses from enhancements only hits once you get 6 DOs or 3 SOs of the same type in a power, and then only to a minor amount. It's once you get a 4th SO worth of enhancement in a power, which is only possible after level 22, that the ED effects take shape. It's up to you whether you want to 6-slot as you always did, then respec once you get into SO range. But ED doesn't really affect the lower levels at all in a strict sense.

But that's not exactly true though. The THIRD SO is only 85% effective (so only 28% instead of 33). The fourth and beyond fall off the cliff. So even if I did build intending to respec, I'd have to go X amount of levels with useless slots OR waste inf filling those slots for less than a decent return AND I'd have to wait until I could find a decent respec trial group (that would finish what they start grrrr, sorry). DOs get hit by ED after the 4th slot of the same type of enhancement (5 DOs of a class A enhancement = 81.97% instead of the 83.3% it should be. 6 = 95% instead of 99.96%). Sure, it's not much numerically but added up across several powers whose primary function is the regeneration of health or endurance, it can get to be huge. And JD said level 30, not 22 (otherwise, I would've agreed completely. It doesn't really start to hurt until you get to 22 and realize half your slots are next to useless for the benefit they give you).

Originally Posted by Red Nile

Your issue that you used to not need any help to absorb any level of damage that you would reasonably come across during a mission...well, that just seems broken to me. Why bother having inspirations or teammates if you don't really need their help? What role do you envision defenders and controllers having if tankers are so impervious as to not need them?

I wasn't talking about my tankers only though. Like I said, now I have to pay attention to my health while playing my scrappers while pre-ED, I didn't have to. And it's not broken because a tradeoff had to be made. Opportunity cost. I had to willfully avoid slotting my attacks at first, in order to slot my secondary better to achieve that level of survivability. So I did less damage on a per attack basis than a scrapper who 1-slotted fast healing and skipped reconstruction altogether but then again, a scrapper lying facedown on the pavement does zero damage so it all balanced out.

The same can be said for my tankers who leaned more on their primaries. I didn't NEED any support when doing simple missions, though adding someone would/could make it go faster. In my view, defenders and controllers should be 'nice to have' not 'MUST have' (as you said). Inspirations? Eh, nice to have but unless I hit a contact before a mission and fill my tray with stuff I can actually use, almost nothing that drops is going to be what I want or need. My regen scrappers get blues constantly and my level 9 inv/EM currently has 5 (of her 8 total slots) filled with break frees that dropped (not totally useless but so situational as to almost be). My blasters rarely see reds or yellows or purples but could open a store and sell Sturdys (again, not totally useless but pretty close to it. 5% mitigation on a blaster is....5% more than they had and probably 75% less than they need ).

I wouldn't doubt your tank is all that you say and more. I don't hate tankers (I've made 4 new ones since ED). I just think the pre-Stamina/SOs game now is harder than it should (or has to) be. Not harder in a difficulty sense, harder in that murky 'fun' kinda way. That's what I attribute to what seems to be a lack of tankers at the mid-low levels (say, around 12ish). No one plays a game to be dependent on other people (MMO or not) and the difference in how tankers operate compared to how scrappers or blasters or defenders operate, is clear to see. If controllers and tankers were stepping on each others' toes, to me that means that their playstyles were divergent and that's bad design. If one class slows down groups and another speeds them up, guess who most players/groups are going to want? Multiple tankers in a group is okay, I guess. But for grinding, I'd rather drop one tanker and replace them with a scrapper, blaster, or defender with a primary complementary to the defender already in the team (rad + dark, for example). But that's my inexperience, I guess. I always build teams based on a model of efficiency (i.e. who gets more mobs dead faster?) since I'm under the impression that most folks don't join teams to get slow xp.

I love my tankers as well and now, since they all have built in defender support (and two of them have THREE defenders supporting them), it's even better. So when I'm "solo", ED doesn't bother me so much. Was a cool experiment that seems to work great overall. So when teams are available, I can join one and when they're not, there's not that much of a dropoff in overall performance. Also works well because most of my tankers don't have Taunt in their builds until 22 and many groups don't like a tanker without taunt.