Statesman TF Preview

[8 Ball]

Link (http://coh.warcry.com/scripts/news/view_news.phtml?site=36&id=68908)

Some pretty cool stuff :D

[razoras]

http://www.warcry.com/scripts/images/view_image.phtml?id=85790&site=36

What is the guy in the Samurai armor doing? What's that poking out of his hand?

If it's spines, where's the rest of the spines?

[Pinny]

hmm..Mayhem Mission-like mission in the statesman TF...

Sadly the "leet doods" will find some way to make this TF the same as the LRSF, with some "leet team" that only has 1-2 ATs leaving the others as "gimps"

[Knightward]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!

Looks juicy.

[Scarf_Girl]

hmm..Mayhem Mission-like mission in the statesman TF...

Sadly the "leet doods" will find some way to make this TF the same as the LRSF, with some "leet team" that only has 1-2 ATs leaving the others as "gimps"
you can come along on my team pinny , we might not win but we'll have fun getting bruises :)

[razoras]

I think I'm more excited about the changes being made to Hami than the States TF for that reason, Pinny. I'll still do it, of course.

[The Icy One]

http://www.warcry.com/scripts/images/view_image.phtml?id=85790&site=36If it's spines, where's the rest of the spines? If you were a Dev you'd make your visuals for spines cooler to. Those spines look almost exactly like how I imagined Scarab's would when thinking up his concept.

[razoras]

It reminds a lot of the arm blades used by those hawt Recluse babes.

[Scarf_Girl]

m of mixed oponions if this means they are redoing the spines animations

[Jade_Dragon]

Honestly, it looks less like a spine, and more of a costume piece, extending out the back of the gauntlet. Although I don't know how that would work when you're NOT in that pose...

Maybe an Invention?

Anyway, I hope they don't change Spines, either. PQ Pine needs to have them sticking out all over him. Although it would be nice if they were brown instead of tan. :D

[TheImperial]

Imp smashy!!

[Jade_Dragon]

We wanted there to be a reason to have Archetypes other than Blasters and Defenders on your team.

Wait... there's a reason to have Blasters and Defenders on your team? Why wasn't I informed? :think:

And now Fate's (http://www.warcry.com/scripts/images/view_image.phtml?id=85786&site=36) been in the comic book AND the Statesman Task Force.

[Joe Schmoe]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!

Looks juicy.

Agreed, god I'm pumped for this. I want to do one everyday. :lol:

[PawnOfFate]

Wait... there's a reason to have Blasters and Defenders on your team? Why wasn't I informed? :think:

And now Fate's (http://www.warcry.com/scripts/images/view_image.phtml?id=85786&site=36) been in the comic book AND the Statesman Task Force.

I rule.

:D

[RedSwitchblade]

you can come along on my team pinny , we might not win but we'll have fun getting bruises :)

Give me a holler, DB. I have 4 50's who all need to go on this... including a mind/rad controller who is absolutely invaluable (I permaslept Scirocco in RV, and as a general note one should definitely consider someone with a single-target sleep power as no AVs have resistance to it and makes multi-AV fights MUCH easier)

[Charon]

Man, this almost makes me want to get to 50 heroside... Looks like an awesome SF, and I'm all about the SFs...

[Grae Knight]

hmm..Mayhem Mission-like mission in the statesman TF...

Sadly the "leet doods" will find some way to make this TF the same as the LRSF, with some "leet team" that only has 1-2 ATs leaving the others as "gimps"

I don't think you will have to worry about that. Hero ATs and powersets were created for teaming so just about any combo should rock. Reason you need specific powersets/ATs with LRSF is because villain ATs being based around their inherents. Every Hero AT has its function.

[TheImperial]

Wait... there's a reason to have Blasters and Defenders on your team? Why wasn't I informed? :think:

And now Fate's (http://www.warcry.com/scripts/images/view_image.phtml?id=85786&site=36) been in the comic book AND the Statesman Task Force.

Woah.

When'd he go with the blue & gold winged getup?

Guess I missed the memo on that one. :|

[Charon]

I don't think you will have to worry about that. Hero ATs and powersets were created for teaming so just about any combo should rock. Reason you need specific powersets/ATs with LRSF is because villain ATs being based around their inherents. Every Hero AT has its function.
I remember speaking to somebody about the hero and villain ATs, and they actually had quite a viable theory - I think it was Joe.

He said that because of the inherent 'Out for myself' nature of villains, that the cryptic team probably made the villain ATs so they were very effective in and of themselves, and in fact weren't built for teaming; whereas hero ATs, because of the inherent feeling that heroes should work together to solve problems, were made to work together in synergy.

It's a very good theory as to why the ATs were made as they are.

[Scarf_Girl]

Give me a holler, DB. I have 4 50's who all need to go on this... including a mind/rad controller who is absolutely invaluable (I permaslept Scirocco in RV, and as a general note one should definitely consider someone with a single-target sleep power as no AVs have resistance to it and makes multi-AV fights MUCH easier)


I'll team with you at the drop of a hat ..or if it's Mardi Gras at the drop of a top :P

[Green Tower]

I really like the Baraka blades on the samurai. I would pay for that power set.

[8 Ball]

I really like the Baraka blades on the samurai. I would pay for that power set.

My guess is that those are an invention Temp power.

[Green Tower]

My guess is that those are an invention Temp power.
I agree since he doesn't have them in the other screen. I predict a potential avalance in desire/whining for some temp powers to be permanent or to become a power set,etc.

[Jade_Dragon]

I think Invention Temp Powers are permanent, or they wouldn't be very useful. Although I suppose they could have charges. It would be interesting if you could use Inventions to recharge a Temp Power...

[Scarf_Girl]

actually the pigg divers have already shown that the temp powers already in the system are charge based , the pistol for example comes with 10 charges

[Pinny]

you can come along on my team pinny , we might not win but we'll have fun getting bruises :)


Yay! Though ATM the only character I have that would be able to do it is a defender, maybe if I can get my scrapper to 40-50 by then....:D

[The Mystic]

This sounds like lots of fun, and I'm guessing we'll be able to get Hammi-o grade enhancers and rare recipes/salvage. In other words, I can't wait and I will always be willing to join. :)

[Graphite]

Am I the only one who thought Claws instead of Spines? This looks like a lot of fun.

[bpphantom]

I'm up for it with my blue-side fiddys.

Oh, and whose top DB?

<.<

>.>

What? I'm just wondering...

[Yin]

Yin likes.

[Jade_Dragon]

actually the pigg divers have already shown that the temp powers already in the system are charge based , the pistol for example comes with 10 charges

Well, at least you can build another.

How does a Baseball Bat have charges? :D

[Powerhelm]

Cryptic has repeatedly shown their tendency to avoid the happy medium and swing from one extreme to another... I'm just worried that since LRSF has no need for Doms (or stalkers maybe) that this TF will swing to the other extreme and will require all 8 people and require atleast one controller...or maybe even in requiring the control AT they totally wipe the need for defenders...since Controllers do the buff/debuff of defs AND have control...

Basically sounds like Defs are SoL in the states tf... :(

[Jade_Dragon]

Basically sounds like Defs are SoL in the states tf... :(

I personally feel Defs are SoL period. The States TF wouldn't be any different.

It's funny, since Corruptors are considered so powerful on the villain side. But I think it's a matter of perception more than actual reality. This IS about perception, though, the AT's are all fairly adaptable, so perception matters more than it would in an MMORPG where the roles are more strictly defined.

[Solos]

Defenders will always have a place in AV fights. They didn't have to cater specifically to controllers since they at least have a buff secondary. Dominators suck because their primary is useless and everyone else can do better damage.

[razoras]

Yeah, perception has been the king of AT issues far more than reality has in CoH. Unfortunately, any kind of "this AT is pointless" memes catch on like wildfire in this game's community when they are rarely true.

[Pinny]

Why are Defs SoL? Because so many people think controllers are better since they have def primaries as secondaries? Those are people I don't team with.

[Solos]

Unless they make it so there's a situation where controls are almost needed, defenders will be picked over controllers. What's the point in having a controller along to attemp tp hold though PTOD when you can invite a defender with better buffs?

[Knightward]

Isn't it kind of... early to start going on about what AT's or powersets are "useless" on the TF when it isn't even on test yet? And Razoras is right, most "problems" with AT's are player conceptions, no more no less. If doms are useless, then why is it so easy to take down an AV when you have 2 or 3 of them on your team? Complaining about what will and won't work with the States TF right now is like complaining about what's going to suck in I15 in the next 5 minutes. The point is, there's nothing to base it on yet.

I'm up for it with my blue-side fiddys.

Oh, and whose top DB?

<.<

>.>

What? I'm just wondering...
For a States TF on Mardi Gras, I will play without a shirt. Maybe pantless too, but I'm no Joe.

[Seadevil]

Man, I need to get someone to 50. >_> Oh, and...

For a States TF on Mardi Gras, I will play without a shirt. Maybe pantless too, but I'm no Joe.

... I'd play one completely nekkid.


With a webcam.


Awwww yeah.

[Scarf_Girl]

naked gamers ...

time for brain bleach :)

[Meltman]

You mean tequilla?

[Jade_Dragon]

Why are Defs SoL? Because so many people think controllers are better since they have def primaries as secondaries? Those are people I don't team with.

The problem is the people who think that Defenders are support, and should not contribute to damage dealing. Those are the people for whom Defenders are SoL, because Controllers can support better than Defenders. While Defenders may have a minor advantage in terms of the strength of their buffs overall Controllers provide better non-damage support.

It's possible the PTOD may nullify this advantage, but the PTOD are only up part of the time, and Controllers will be able to use their Secondaries all of the time. Dominators are considered useless because their Secondary is attack, NOT because of the PTOD, and I will suspect Defenders will be treated exactly the same.

The all-Defender teams, like the all-Corruptor teams, may become an alternative for those "in the know". But they won't be able to put out the same damage as an all-Corruptor team. And if you bring in anything else to raise the damage, you break the synergy of everyone serving the exact same role. So I think it's way too early to be making predictions, particularly based on the behavior of the villain version.

[RedSwitchblade]

Okay, so WHAT is PTOD? Purple Triangles of Doom? That AV hold-protection buff?

[Pinny]

yes

[bpphantom]

Pft. Meaningless as has been seen several times. They don't apply to all Mez types, and there are other status effects that are just as good as a hold that aren't protected against by the PTOD. Controllers will be used on the STF for tasks other than holding the AV's. Sapper cannons, artillery, flamethrowers, the Arachnos Flier, etc...

[Jade_Dragon]

Pft. Meaningless as has been seen several times. They don't apply to all Mez types, and there are other status effects that are just as good as a hold that aren't protected against by the PTOD. Controllers will be used on the STF for tasks other than holding the AV's. Sapper cannons, artillery, flamethrowers, the Arachnos Flier, etc...

Yeah, it's not the Dominators' Primary that's percieved as useless, it's their Secondary.

Personally, I think if you look at it as the Dominator swinging wildly from the weakest member of the team, to the strongest, it helps. But few people want to look at them that way, I think. The primary ranged damaged dealer is the Corruptor, and they want it to always be that way.

[Powerhelm]

Maybe I should restate this:

Defenders at large are not SoL. A good point was made on the official boards. Controllers will more often than not be too busy with controlling to do buff/debuffing like a Defender maybe sometimes is too busy buffing/debuffing (depending on powerset) to blast.

However...this doesn't really apply to FF and (to a similar degree) Sonic primary Defenders...

These two have fire and forget powers that last 4 minutes or til the toggle drops in some cases...Doesn't take an uber controller toggle on dispersion field and fire off double bubbles every 4 minutes...

Basically a team is better off with a controller and his pets doing damage (which when combined with their holds gets doubled) and bubbling between fights than they are with a bubbling defender...

Rad's and Dark can hold their own (dark not being available to controllers) and Emp is a full time job itself, Trick arrow could be controller lite, Storm to a lesser degree since their two really nice team helping powers are toggles...

I'd really like to see FF/SR both get "reimagined" on the Defender side to make them better than the Controller version or weaken the controller versions of these two powers (though I'd rather just see new or altered powers on Defs rather than nerfing trollers) because as is, day-to-day, an FF troller will always get picked over an FF defender.

Also I've been seeing a resurgence in the classic "We need a Defender what prim are you?" "FF." "Ok, nevermind. Thanks." /tell conversations...

Had 3 of them in the last 2 days...

Honestly if you can get a great player who can manage both their controls AND their buffs/debuffs then they'll always overshadow the best Defender of a similar powerset. Between pets, double controlled damage, damage mitigation from lockdowns, and the negligible difference in troller buff/debuffing as compared to Def powers trollers win hands down.

The only thing saving Defenders from never getting invites is player capability with managing two useful powersets and the difficulty of leveling controllers pre-pets which results in fewer people typically using controllers and therefore fewer controllers to team with.

[Jade_Dragon]

Honestly, it looks to me like you just detailed every single reason Defenders are SoL.

I disagree that it's difficult to level Controllers pre-pets, though. There's been a lot of ranting on the board about the Containment nerf, but the fact is, that only effected Epic powers post-40. There has been no change to Controllers pre-40. And I can state from experience that Controllers are EXTREMELY soloable. My Controller easily levels at twice the rate of my FF Defender. (Actually, all my characters do)

The problem with FF is that it lacks offense. Sonic at least has some offense, but like FF is limited because it is a buff set, and not debuff, and thus is weaker for the caster than it is for his allies. And honestly, Sonic as a Secondary is better as an offense buff. Which is IMHO ridiculous.

Fixing FF won't fix the problem, though, which is that Defenders are a hybrid class. They are NOT support, they are a combination of support and offense. As long as your teammates insist that you ignore half of your powers because it threatens their "role" on the team, Defenders will never be as attractive to groups as Controllers.

I'll also add that Tankers never have any problem using their attacks while they are running their defenses. Scrappers don't have problems running their defenses while they attack. Blasters don't have any problem running in and Blapping. (or using their power boosts, or dropping traps if they're Devices) Yet, somehow there is this argument that Controllers can't use their Primaries and still have time for their Secondaries. Or that Defenders can't use their blasts without it threatening their ability to heal you. Pretty much, the other archetypes HAVE to use their Primaries and Secondaries at the same time, if they have any problems with it, they have to slot Endurance or do other things to help out the "balance" between the two. Yet, for some reason that's just not possible for Defenders and Controllers.

I'm sorry. I don't buy that argument.

[Solos]

If you choose 30% defense and usless mes capabilities over 40% defense and damage i don't really want to do a TF with you in the first place. Holds are irrelevant in AV fights because either anything can hold them or nothing can, depending on if PTOD are up or down. It is much better to have the extra buffs/debuffs than stacking 5 holds on an AV at once when 2 would do.

[bpphantom]

Versus AV's in the STF, almost everyone should have a hold.

APP's offer a hold to SO MANY AT's. Hell, my stone tank has a hold, (not counting the Crey Pistol... ALSO a hold).

The AOE holds will be good for controlling a fight with adds (Recluse calling for reinforcements or the Arachnos Flier for example).

I'll never turn any AT away from a team unless I've already got a surplus. ;)

[Powerhelm]

If you choose 30% defense and usless mes capabilities over 40% defense

Now don't fuss at me for this, these are direct quotes from Hero Builder:

Def Deflection Shield base #'s :
Lethal/Smash- 15%
Toxic- 30%
Defense: Melee- 15%

Troller Deflection Shield base #'s :
Lethal/Smash- 11.25%
Toxic- 22.50%
Defense: Melee- 11.25%

Def Dispersion bubble Base: 10%
Troller Dispersion bubble Base: 7.5%

2.5% difference between the Dispersion bubbles...that's not much at all...3.75% difference in the individual shield defense and 7.5% diff in toxic resist...

Hell, every other power in that set that isn't a team/self bubble is exactly the same cost and effectiveness...except Detention Field...which lasts 7+ seconds longer...for controllers...FF is a one trick pony and unfortunately it's a trick that controllers can do, realistically speaking, just as well.

Oh and Personal Forcefield (which doesn't help the team) is about 20% less powerful than it's defender version, but that's because unlike controllers (thanks to pets) most defenders can't do anything to the enemy while in their PFF unless they have Electric blasts an Voltaic Sentinel...

[Solos]

It's the difference between betting hit 10% of the time and 20% of the time. Once you factor in AV modifiers it's the difference between getting hit 19.5% of the time and 39% of the time. it ends up as a pretty big difference!

[Jade_Dragon]

It's the difference between betting hit 10% of the time and 20% of the time. Once you factor in AV modifiers it's the difference between getting hit 19.5% of the time and 39% of the time. it ends up as a pretty big difference!

Not really. If you have 1000 hit points, it doesn't really matter whether you take 1 per hit, or 2 per hit. You'll still be alive once the fight is over. Even though, technically, 2 per hit is twice as much damage.

[Solos]

Yeah but AVs can 2 shot squishies. If the AV hits you, you have a 20% chance of dying on the next hit if a defender is with you, 40% chance of dying if a controller is with you.

[Jade_Dragon]

Yeah but AVs can 2 shot squishies. If the AV hits you, you have a 20% chance of dying on the next hit if a defender is with you, 40% chance of dying if a controller is with you.

Well, if you're a squishie, you shouldn't be counting on a buff/debuff to keep you alive. Especially since if you're about to die, the squishie providing the buff/debuff is likely about to die, too.

[Powerhelm]

It's the difference between betting hit 10% of the time and 20% of the time. Once you factor in AV modifiers it's the difference between getting hit 19.5% of the time and 39% of the time. it ends up as a pretty big difference!

First of all, having been on numerous AV teams I can say that AV acc pretty much ignores Def FFs 99% of the time. So, AVs aren't a good measure anyway.

Second this is Cryptic Math not the kinda math we want it to be. The 10/20% chance of getting hit is the same as that 10% chance of seeing Jack in halloween...I was among many who played for hours and took down a solid 40+ Eochai GMs and a Jack never spawned for us. 10% doesn't mean you will definitely not get hit atleast 10% of the time. It just means there's a 10% chance of not getting hit with each attack.

As far as that goes every attack for 500 attacks could hit you or could miss you depending on all those invisible die rolls and such.

If you want to compare shields compare Sonic shields between the two. Trollers barely provide less of a buff than defs AND you continue to overlook that the primary function of Trollers is control which include by and large, damage mitigation or prevention through controlling opponents.

This is why I say a well played controller will always beat and be more desirable than a well played Defender.

In fact I'll prove it, if someone has a lvl 50 */FF troller fully slotted and ready to rock with equal slotting in it's shields (the 2 double bubbles and dispersion each have one end reduc and 3 def all lvl 53) I'll gladly run the same mission as them with the same team and we'll see which team gets through faster and with fewer deaths/near death experiences (health going below 1/4). I can already tell you it'll be the troller FF team.

[Jade_Dragon]

This is why I say a well played controller will always beat and be more desirable than a well played Defender.

A well played Controller will always beat and be more desirable AS TEAM SUPPORT than a well played Defender.

Other than that minor correction, though, I agree with you 100%. If you want a combination of buffs, debuffs and blasts, then you want a Defender on your team. If you want "pure" team support, then you want a Controller. No amount of bitching about how Defenders are supposed to be "the support Archetype" will ever change that.

Which is actually perfectly fine, with me. I do think FF needs some work, but by and large Defenders are fine as long as you don't expect them to be something they aren't. If you don't want me on your team, fine, I probably was planning on soloing anyway.

[Pinny]

See, you guys are already arguing about the "ubar leet" Statesman TF team, just like you guys probably did this same thing over the LRSF, then guess what? a team of all "gimp" ATs beat it 30min later than the "leet team" did, hah!

[Solos]

First of all, having been on numerous AV teams I can say that AV acc pretty much ignores Def FFs 99% of the time. So, AVs aren't a good measure anyway.

The numbers i quotes were accurate for 3 slotted shields and dispersion against +3 AVs (which is what we presume the Arachnos AVs will be).

Second this is Cryptic Math not the kinda math we want it to be. The 10/20% chance of getting hit is the same as that 10% chance of seeing Jack in halloween...I was among many who played for hours and took down a solid 40+ Eochai GMs and a Jack never spawned for us. 10% doesn't mean you will definitely not get hit atleast 10% of the time. It just means there's a 10% chance of not getting hit with each attack.

No, it mean's there's a 10% chance of getting hit. There is a 90% chance of not getting hit by an attack from an even level minion.

As far as that goes every attack for 500 attacks could hit you or could miss you depending on all those invisible die rolls and such.

That doesn't change the fact that statistically speaking you will only get hit 50 times out of those 500.

If you want to compare shields compare Sonic shields between the two. Trollers barely provide less of a buff than defs AND you continue to overlook that the primary function of Trollers is control which include by and large, damage mitigation or prevention through controlling opponents.

Resistance isn't multiplied by accuracy in the same way defense is so the difference is smaller. However sonic does have -res which is a damage multiplier and the difference in that, while small, soon adds up.

This is why I say a well played controller will always beat and be more desirable than a well played Defender.

In fact I'll prove it, if someone has a lvl 50 */FF troller fully slotted and ready to rock with equal slotting in it's shields (the 2 double bubbles and dispersion each have one end reduc and 3 def all lvl 53) I'll gladly run the same mission as them with the same team and we'll see which team gets through faster and with fewer deaths/near death experiences (health going below 1/4). I can already tell you it'll be the troller FF team.

I don't doubt that. However we are talking specifically against AVs. All the controller's holds aren't going to make a blind bit of difference, whereas a defender's better buffs/debuffs and damage are.

[Powerhelm]

Other than that minor correction, though, I agree with you 100%. If you want a combination of buffs, debuffs and blasts, then you want a Defender on your team.

If you get defs for blasts that's like the Colts drafting a peewee quaterback to lead them to the superbowl. Def ranged damage is on par or less than controller ranged damage. Granted trollers might not get containment on AVs but they will on every other mob which = double damage, then add in pet damage, Fire/Kin trollers anyone?

There is a 90% chance of not getting hit by an attack from an even level minion.

Hell, you've got a 75% chance of not getting hit from an even level minion w/o shields at all because minions have such great accuracy :p 90% has GOT to be off, again with 3 years of FF under my belt I can confidently say I've never been on a team (or even duo which I did alot over the last couple months) and seen minions miss me or my teammates 90% of the time...

That doesn't change the fact that statistically speaking you will only get hit 50 times out of those 500

Yeah, um, I don't really understand your math. First of all please name the last time you saw 450 whiffs? Statistically speaking people SHOULD have seen jack once for every 10 eochai...people reported doing 20-50+ eochai with no jack. In reality you're only going to be MISSED, at MOST, 45-50% of the time. Hell anymore than that and Bubblers wouldn't be able to log on without being bombarded by friends and PUGS alike...

I don't doubt that. However we are talking specifically against AVs. All the controller's holds aren't going to make a blind bit of difference, whereas a defender's better buffs/debuffs and damage are

The thing is we've already been strongly hinted that controllers will be all but required to complete the SMTF which means their holds MUST be very important since their debuffs and buffs are on par or less than defenders...So if you have 8 man team, going up against AVs and you know something about the encounter requires trollers (maybe they're reducing PTOD effectiveness?) you've got 1-2 tanks, 1-3 blasters, 1-3 scrappers... you're gonna get 2 trollers that you know you'll need and if one controller is a must then two would be wise to have...where are defenders in that? Especially since trollers can do the same job AND their specific job as well...

Yeah a Sonic/Sonic Def is better at debuffing res than a */sonic troller. A dark/dark is better, and the only one that can debuff acc naturally...ta/a, FF/*, are both left out in the cold then again atleast ta/a have some offense and control in their primary...kinda...FF for defenders has needed restructuring and help since day one, if not to make the powerset as a whole better then to atleast make FF defs different from FF trollers.

[Jade_Dragon]

I don't doubt that. However we are talking specifically against AVs. All the controller's holds aren't going to make a blind bit of difference, whereas a defender's better buffs/debuffs and damage are.

You seem to be thinking that a Controller can NEVER hold an AV. The PToD aren't up all the time. And if you have two or more Controllers on the team, I'm sure you can stack enough effects to hold during the time the triangles are down. Plus, a Controller has other effects, like slows and pets, that he can bring to the fight.

Plus, all the damage in the world isn't going to make a blind bit of difference, either. As I said above, it doesn't matter how many HPs you have left, as long at its not zero. The same applies to the AV. Until you do that final bit of damage that kills it, it will continue to attack you and do just as much damage as if you didn't attack it at all.

As I said previously, a Dominator is perceived as useless in the LRSF not because it has half a Primary, but because it has a "useless" Secondary. Controllers may have half a Primary too (although they DO have stronger holds than Dominators) but they have a full Secondary. Defenders, by contrast, have a full Primary, but the same "useless" Secondary Dominators have.

Now, this is not to say that a group of Dominators can't beat the LRSF. Get Domination up, and you're doing as much damage as a Blaster, and you have stronger holds than a Controller. That's a fact most of the so-called "experts" conveniently ignore. Or even refuse to believe outright. But the perception is that Dominators are useless, and Defenders will end up painted with the exact same brush.

(Note also, BTW, that there is not a single villain AT that has Buff/Debuffs of the Defender level. So I'm sure that will also be used as "proof" that the Controller level of defense is just fine)

[Jade_Dragon]

If you get defs for blasts that's like the Colts drafting a peewee quaterback to lead them to the superbowl. Def ranged damage is on par or less than controller ranged damage. Granted trollers might not get containment on AVs but they will on every other mob which = double damage, then add in pet damage, Fire/Kin trollers anyone?

I'm not even going to get into the argument that Defenders get buff/debuffs and damage, while Controllers get 80% of those buff/debuffs, PLUS controls, PLUS the exact same damage. I'm assuming that, for a typical support build, the Defender will do more damage than the Controller. I don't necessarily believe that, and I KNOW that a Controller can do more damage than a Force Field or Empathy Defender, but for the sake of the argument above, I'm not even taking that into account.

Honestly, the argument that a Controller won't be needed once you get to the AV ignores the fact that first you have to get to the AV.

[MaligneFamily]

Lol.

[The Widowed]

I think Invention Temp Powers are permanent, or they wouldn't be very useful. Although I suppose they could have charges. It would be interesting if you could use Inventions to recharge a Temp Power...
Ooooh, I hope so too. You know those Vials of Bees that Vernon von Grun gives you a few times through the course of his story arc?

I want them.

Lots of them.

Isn't it kind of... early to start going on about what AT's or powersets are "useless" on the TF when it isn't even on test yet? And Razoras is right, most "problems" with AT's are player conceptions, no more no less. If doms are useless, then why is it so easy to take down an AV when you have 2 or 3 of them on your team?
Amen. I think I'd pay good money for someone to post screenshots (with UI's) of that team of eight Dominators which supposedly beat the LRSF. "Hey, Dom bashers! Stick these up your naysaying bungholes!" :P

And yes, multiple Doms on a team can be evil against Heroes and Archvillains...especially if the Doms are just holding back on their fully charged Domination gauges, ready to go Mr. Hyde the moment they lay eyes on the AV. Like what First Victim and Bloodywedd did against Ghost Widow. Oh, God...I'll never forget the horror of seeing Ghost Widow brutally ripped to pieces like that.... :o

[Solos]

If you get defs for blasts that's like the Colts drafting a peewee quaterback to lead them to the superbowl. Def ranged damage is on par or less than controller ranged damage. Granted trollers might not get containment on AVs but they will on every other mob which = double damage, then add in pet damage, Fire/Kin trollers anyone?

There is no way controllers do as much damage as defenders. My psi defender can do more damage than an ice corruptor before factoring debuffs. Defenders have the best buffs/debuffs and so are the best damage multipliers. Also remember that controller epics got halved in damage.



Hell, you've got a 75% chance of not getting hit from an even level minion w/o shields at all because minions have such great accuracy :p 90% has GOT to be off, again with 3 years of FF under my belt I can confidently say I've never been on a team (or even duo which I did alot over the last couple months) and seen minions miss me or my teammates 90% of the time...

Actually it's a straight 50% tohit for an even level minion. Maybe you are thinking of pre I7? Before then enemies higher level than you and higher class than you got a tohit buff, gutting defense powers. Now that's all done by accuracy modifiers. The numbers i'm quoting are accurate. If you want to try it out i'd be happy to be a guinea pig.



Yeah, um, I don't really understand your math. First of all please name the last time you saw 450 whiffs? Statistically speaking people SHOULD have seen jack once for every 10 eochai...people reported doing 20-50+ eochai with no jack. In reality you're only going to be MISSED, at MOST, 45-50% of the time. Hell anymore than that and Bubblers wouldn't be able to log on without being bombarded by friends and PUGS alike...

I'm not making the connection between a bugged spawn and the accuracy system. From all the tests people have done they have found it to be accurate. Castle even left a minion swinging at him over the weekend and the hit/miss ratio was almost perfect for what it should have been. The 50% accuracy is base. With defender bubbles you get the numbers i quoted.



The thing is we've already been strongly hinted that controllers will be all but required to complete the SMTF which means their holds MUST be very important since their debuffs and buffs are on par or less than defenders...So if you have 8 man team, going up against AVs and you know something about the encounter requires trollers (maybe they're reducing PTOD effectiveness?) you've got 1-2 tanks, 1-3 blasters, 1-3 scrappers... you're gonna get 2 trollers that you know you'll need and if one controller is a must then two would be wise to have...where are defenders in that? Especially since trollers can do the same job AND their specific job as well...

Yeah a Sonic/Sonic Def is better at debuffing res than a */sonic troller. A dark/dark is better, and the only one that can debuff acc naturally...ta/a, FF/*, are both left out in the cold then again atleast ta/a have some offense and control in their primary...kinda...FF for defenders has needed restructuring and help since day one, if not to make the powerset as a whole better then to atleast make FF defs different from FF trollers.

If i was to take an ideal team in, i would go with 1 tank, maybe a controller or two since they will apparantly be required, a bunch of rad and sonic defenders and an FF defender with manuevers. The reason for the FF defender is fully slotted shields+dispersion+manuevers caps defense, meaning the AVs will only be hitting you 9% of the time. It's just easier than popping 4 lucks at a time.

[Jade_Dragon]

There is no way controllers do as much damage as defenders. My psi defender can do more damage than an ice corruptor before factoring debuffs. Defenders have the best buffs/debuffs and so are the best damage multipliers. Also remember that controller epics got halved in damage.

a) Did you mean to say Ice Controller, or are you somehow saying that you do more damage than Controllers because you do more damage than Corruptors? (And if you aren't factoring debuffs, you shouldn't do more damage than a Corruptor)

b) If you don't factor in debuffs, (since FF doesn't have any that boost damage) my FF Defender doesn't do anywhere near the damage Joe Everyman does. And it's gotten to the point where I don't even boost Joe's damage any more, he gets more of a bonus from Containment, without spending Endurance, than he does from Siphon Power.

Yes, Controllers CAN do more damage than Defenders. That's a fact, I confirm it every time I play. And both Joe and Jade Dragon are built to do as much damage as possible for their specific Power Sets. So it's not a case of comparing a gimped build to a good one. If you want to argue that FF is gimped, fine, but you said there was NO example of a Controller doing more damage than a Defender, and I just gave you one.

And Joe isn't even level 40, so Epics don't come into the picture.

[RedSwitchblade]

So, is this going in the debates forum yet or what?

[Jade_Dragon]

So, is this going in the debates forum yet or what?

Fine with me...

[Powerhelm]

There is no way controllers do as much damage as defenders. My psi defender can do more damage than an ice corruptor before factoring debuffs.

Umm that's cause it's PSI...if it were ice, fire, elec, energy, sonic, archery it'd be a different story. Few things have def/res to psi...

Actually it's a straight 50% tohit for an even level minion. Maybe you are thinking of pre I7? Before then enemies higher level than you and higher class than you got a tohit buff, gutting defense powers. Now that's all done by accuracy modifiers. The numbers i'm quoting are accurate. If you want to try it out i'd be happy to be a guinea pig.

If you're trying to tell me you can stand in front of a MOB and he'll whiff 10 out of 20 times (give or take one or two swings) then I'll buy you a pizza if you're right. I never bet unless I know I can win. I've played plenty since I7 and even up to the past couple nights I've been seeing minions hit AT LEAST 75% of the time base. I know they also hit at least 50% with shields up. And that's just minions since they should be easy to take out anyway lets focus the discussion on Lt.s or Bosses or AVs...

meaning the AVs will only be hitting you 9% of the time

Could you please step into this padded room I think you're crazy. An AV, hitting, ONLY 9% of the time...with shields and the pitiful 2-3.5% from Maneuvers...that cannot be right. I've never seen that and I've fought a fair share of AVs...

[Solos]

Umm that's cause it's PSI...if it were ice, fire, elec, energy, sonic, archery it'd be a different story. Few things have def/res to psi...



If you're trying to tell me you can stand in front of a MOB and he'll whiff 10 out of 20 times (give or take one or two swings) then I'll buy you a pizza if you're right. I never bet unless I know I can win. I've played plenty since I7 and even up to the past couple nights I've been seeing minions hit AT LEAST 75% of the time base. I know they also hit at least 50% with shields up. And that's just minions since they should be easy to take out anyway lets focus the discussion on Lt.s or Bosses or AVs...

Tested against an even level Arachnos minion with no status effects and all defense toggles off:

mmmmhmhmmmmhmmhhhmmhhmhhhmhhhmmhmmmh

Hits: 16
Misses: 20

Sure, such a small sample is no where near large enough to be considered proof but it's closer to 50% than 75%.

Could you please step into this padded room I think you're crazy. An AV, hitting, ONLY 9% of the time...with shields and the pitiful 2-3.5% from Maneuvers...that cannot be right. I've never seen that and I've fought a fair share of AVs...

Well if you want my workings...

Shields:15%
Dispersion:10%
Manuevers:3.5%

Which when 3 slotted for def SOs:

Shields:24%
Dispersion:16%
Manuevers:5.6%

Total:45.6%

Overall chance to hit=(tohit-def)*acc

50-45.6=4.4%

Lower cap for tohit-def is 5%, if exceeded it is brought up to this level.



Accuracy modifiers:

Archvillain class: 1.5
+3 levels: 1.3

Accuracy bonus: 1.5*1.3=1.95


So net tohit for a +3 AV=1.95*5=9.75%

[bpphantom]

Hell even with my SR I've gone fights and not been nicked at all... though those are rare. Often I get my pink ass handed to me.

Overall, DEF makes more difference than RES, which any /Elec brute will tell you.

[Powerhelm]

Yeah but what I'm saying is chances are the SMTF team on average will have at least one controller, probably desiring two for their redundancy. Two FF trollers will take you to the Def cap just as well as 2 FF Defs AND they'll give you crowd control.

In general controllers are more useful than Defs. I'm really surprised trollers don't constantly get invites to teams considering their overall usefulness.

And lets say I have PFF up. With my defender I have 146% defense with it 3 slotted with SO def enhancers. Statistically, I should never get hit by a minion or anyone.

You can bring out numbers till you're blue in the face, doesn't change the fact that overall, a well played controller that can manage their primary and secondary will always be preferable to a Def with the same powersets unless you're pre-disposed to preferring on AT over the other. This is all the more evident in the FF powerset where there is little utility. It's all knockback or buff other people aside from the PFF and Detention field.

[Jumproot]

hello!

powerhelm, no offense, but I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove.

you say that even though it'll take two FF controllers to get to the +def cap whereas it only takes one FF defender to do the same, that controllers are more useful valuable?

furthermore, even though you have really high +def while in PFF, everything in the game has a 5% chance to hit you no matter what. furthermore, neither PFF nor anything in the FF set gives resistance to -def.

you can bring out your personal experiences until you're blue in the face, but until either other people start having similar events, or you have the numbers to prove your point, I'm not exactly sure how you expect anyone to take you seriously.

I think that no matter what, everyone views their favorite character as vastly underpowered compared to other sets and ATs, and the 'really' strong combinations are sets and ATs that they don't have.

I'm telling you right now, though - controllers will not be more useful than defenders on the statesman TF unless there are considerably large and difficult-to-handle ambushes. purple triangles make it extremely difficult for any control powers to work to the point of them being helpful. furthermore, there's no telling if the AVs in the STF will work in the same way that heroes in the LRSF work - will they even need to abide by the standard rules that every other NPC needs to?

[Solos]

^^^:mad:

Yeah but what I'm saying is chances are the SMTF team on average will have at least one controller, probably desiring two for their redundancy. Two FF trollers will take you to the Def cap just as well as 2 FF Defs AND they'll give you crowd control.

Yeah, but that can be said for anything. Two scrappers can take more damage than one tank if split between them. Two defenders can do better damage than one blaster. Two controllers can buff/debuff more than one defender. However, why would you spend two team slots on buffing defense when you can spend one on capping defense and one on debuffing resistance for example? We've already established that anything can hold AVs when PTOD are down, and RSF AVs (so presumably STF as well) can just break out of holds for no reason anyway. Why would you pick two control/buff sets when you can pick better buffs/damage instead?

In general controllers are more useful than Defs. I'm really surprised trollers don't constantly get invites to teams considering their overall usefulness.

Me neither! But this is a special situation where controllers aren't really as much use as they usually are.

And lets say I have PFF up. With my defender I have 146% defense with it 3 slotted with SO def enhancers. Statistically, I should never get hit by a minion or anyone.

As i said, the lower boundary for defense is 5%. if it goes lower than that it gets capped at this before accuracy modifiers are applied.

You can bring out numbers till you're blue in the face, doesn't change the fact that overall, a well played controller that can manage their primary and secondary will always be preferable to a Def with the same powersets unless you're pre-disposed to preferring on AT over the other. This is all the more evident in the FF powerset where there is little utility. It's all knockback or buff other people aside from the PFF and Detention field.

With cross buffing you can use your attack secondary. And anyway, there's a reason why they specifically gave controllers something to do! Defenders already have a role

[Jade_Dragon]

I think that no matter what, everyone views their favorite character as vastly underpowered compared to other sets and ATs, and the 'really' strong combinations are sets and ATs that they don't have.

I can't fit that description, since I have characters of all ten Archetypes. And don't try to say I just haven't played them all to the same level, because they're all between 24 and 33.

Granted, I can't compare a Rad Defender to an Illusion Controller, but that's not really the point. I view FF as underperforming because I can conclusively prove that it takes me twice as long to get to any given level with a FF Defender than with any other character I've ever played. That's not perception, that's hard, concrete numbers.

And finally, I don't know what Powerhelm's trying to prove, but for me it's not that Controllers have a huge advantage over Defenders. It's that Defenders and Blasters are NOT going to have a huge advantage over Controllers, as the devs appear to think. Controllers are NOT Dominators, and it is a mistake to assume that just because Dominators have a problem, Controllers will have the same problem.

[Solos]

I can't fit that description, since I have characters of all ten Archetypes. And don't try to say I just haven't played them all to the same level, because they're all between 24 and 33.

No offense intended but if your highest character is 33 have you even fought an AV besides Dr. Vahz? If you've SKed up to an AV killing team then that's fine but i can't remember if there are any that low?

Granted, I can't compare a Rad Defender to an Illusion Controller, but that's not really the point. I view FF as underperforming because I can conclusively prove that it takes me twice as long to get to any given level with a FF Defender than with any other character I've ever played. That's not perception, that's hard, concrete numbers.

Can i see these numbers? How were you levelling, full teams or solo? FF is a very team oriented set and i don't doubt it would take you much longer to solo one compared to say a scrapper. Since we are talking about full teams against AVs i don't think it can be compared to solo minion killing.

And finally, I don't know what Powerhelm's trying to prove, but for me it's not that Controllers have a huge advantage over Defenders. It's that Defenders and Blasters are NOT going to have a huge advantage over Controllers, as the devs appear to think. Controllers are NOT Dominators, and it is a mistake to assume that just because Dominators have a problem, Controllers will have the same problem.

Yeah, controllers would have gotten on teams anyway. They buff too, and since the ideal team will rarely be available they will still be invited to STFs.

[Solos]

I can't fit that description, since I have characters of all ten Archetypes. And don't try to say I just haven't played them all to the same level, because they're all between 24 and 33.

No offense intended but if your highest character is 33 have you even fought an AV besides Dr. Vahz? If you've SKed up to an AV killing team then that's fine but i can't remember if there are any that low?

Granted, I can't compare a Rad Defender to an Illusion Controller, but that's not really the point. I view FF as underperforming because I can conclusively prove that it takes me twice as long to get to any given level with a FF Defender than with any other character I've ever played. That's not perception, that's hard, concrete numbers.

Can i see these numbers? How were you levelling, full teams or solo? FF is a very team oriented set and i don't doubt it would take you much longer to solo one compared to say a scrapper. Since we are talking about full teams against AVs i don't think it can be compared to solo minion killing.

And finally, I don't know what Powerhelm's trying to prove, but for me it's not that Controllers have a huge advantage over Defenders. It's that Defenders and Blasters are NOT going to have a huge advantage over Controllers, as the devs appear to think. Controllers are NOT Dominators, and it is a mistake to assume that just because Dominators have a problem, Controllers will have the same problem.

Yeah, controllers would have gotten on teams anyway. They buff too, and since the ideal team will rarely be available they will still be invited to STFs. However, Powerhelm did say that nobody will want defenders (and later specifically FF defenders) which i don't agree with.

[Jade_Dragon]

No offense intended but if your highest character is 33 have you even fought an AV besides Dr. Vahz? If you've SKed up to an AV killing team then that's fine but i can't remember if there are any that low?

Offense taken anyway. I don't like the implication that because I don't have a high level character, I'm an inferior player.

Can i see these numbers? How were you levelling, full teams or solo? FF is a very team oriented set and i don't doubt it would take you much longer to solo one compared to say a scrapper. Since we are talking about full teams against AVs i don't think it can be compared to solo minion killing.

I'm not talking about soloing an FF Defender compared to a Scrapper. I'm talking about an FF Defender compared to every other AT in the game. Including Controllers. Including other Defenders.

Now, I can't talk about anything but solo play, since that's what I mainly do. But I can't believe that things are that much different. When solo an FF Defender provides a single type of defense, which is able to reach its cap fairly easily under normal circumstances, and no additional offense. An FF Defender in a group is providing exactly the same thing. An FF Defender in an AV fight is providing exactly the same thing. I don't magically start producing an offense boost or resistance because my team is taking on an AV.

Now, when an FF Defender is in a group, by definition, he recieves exactly as much XP as everyone else in the group. His contribution to the group, compared to another Defender, doesn't determine how much XP he gets. So it's my feeling that XP gain in a group, unlike XP gain solo, isn't a reliable indicator of balance. I'm not saying that XP gain solo is a reliable indicator of group balance, but it is at least better at identifying problems.

At any rate, my conclusions about FF are confirmed by actual players of the Power Set, who report issues such as being unable to find groups, being unable to keep themselves alive while protecting their team, and feeling dissatisfied with merely applying the main three powers and doing nothing else. This leads me to the conclusion that there is a problem, and that the best people to ask about the performance of the set are those that actually use it, instead of saying that they should NOT be consulted since their issues are actually nothing but "thinking their favorite set is underperforming".

But hey, I've been screaming in the deaf ears of the devs about this for two years, I don't really expect you to listen to me. (Well, you may listen, but I don't expect you to change your mind)

(I'll also add that discussions of Defenders vs Controllers and discussions of Force Field are two different topics. I still say it's too early to say Defenders will have the advantage over Controllers, or vice versa, but doesn't have anything to do with Force Field. Except to say that it's one more reason to say that it's too early to say)

[Solos]

Offense taken anyway. I don't like the implication that because I don't have a high level character, I'm an inferior player.

I didn't say that. All i was asking is if you have fought many AVs. AV fights are vastly different from the minion slaying that most most of the PvE game consists of. In AV battle you want buffs/debuffs and single target damage. In minion slaying you want buffs/debuffs, controls and AoE damage. It could be argued that it is closer to PvPthan normal PvE, going by the powers you want to use.


I'm not talking about soloing an FF Defender compared to a Scrapper. I'm talking about an FF Defender compared to every other AT in the game. Including Controllers. Including other Defenders.

Now, I can't talk about anything but solo play, since that's what I mainly do. But I can't believe that things are that much different. When solo an FF Defender provides a single type of defense, which is able to reach its cap fairly easily under normal circumstances, and no additional offense. An FF Defender in a group is providing exactly the same thing. An FF Defender in an AV fight is providing exactly the same thing. I don't magically start producing an offense boost or resistance because my team is taking on an AV.

It probably is. But then what do you expect from a set whose purpose is to grant defese to teammates? When you are in a team your teammates become much more survivable, and have the ability to take on harder enemies and thus get more XP. Since an AV can 2 shot squishies you don't want them hitting 75% of the time (95% of the time if they are +3). You want them to miss so everyone doesn't die.

Now, when an FF Defender is in a group, by definition, he recieves exactly as much XP as everyone else in the group. His contribution to the group, compared to another Defender, doesn't determine how much XP he gets. So it's my feeling that XP gain in a group, unlike XP gain solo, isn't a reliable indicator of balance. I'm not saying that XP gain solo is a reliable indicator of group balance, but it is at least better at identifying problems.

However, if the presence of an FF defender allows the team to take on enemies 2 levels higher than usual, the XP rate will be higher. But again, if you want to solo play a scrapper or blaster. Defenders and controllers aren't really deisgned for the job.

At any rate, my conclusions about FF are confirmed by actual players of the Power Set, who report issues such as being unable to find groups, being unable to keep themselves alive while protecting their team, and feeling dissatisfied with merely applying the main three powers and doing nothing else. This leads me to the conclusion that there is a problem, and that the best people to ask about the performance of the set are those that actually use it, instead of saying that they should NOT be consulted since their issues are actually nothing but "thinking their favorite set is underperforming".

I agree that FF has issues. It's incredibly passive, and the only active powers do knockback and repel, which pisses people off and gets you debt. The amount of defense buffing they provide is not a problem however, which is what Powerhelm seemed to claim.

But hey, I've been screaming in the deaf ears of the devs about this for two years, I don't really expect you to listen to me. (Well, you may listen, but I don't expect you to change your mind)

(I'll also add that discussions of Defenders vs Controllers and discussions of Force Field are two different topics. I still say it's too early to say Defenders will have the advantage over Controllers, or vice versa, but doesn't have anything to do with Force Field. Except to say that it's one more reason to say that it's too early to say)

The devs seem to think that a buff bot that can't do anything else useful is fun. Nobody else thinks so, but it's their game i guess.

[Krypto]

lol, SMTF? That's the GAYEST thing I've ever heard. WoW acronyms are ****ing lame.

[bpphantom]

A bubbler on a team levels just as fast as everyone else on the team. Primary, secondary or evil. A bubbler Def is a Team build out of the box.

[Jade_Dragon]

I didn't say that. All i was asking is if you have fought many AVs. AV fights are vastly different from the minion slaying that most most of the PvE game consists of. In AV battle you want buffs/debuffs and single target damage. In minion slaying you want buffs/debuffs, controls and AoE damage. It could be argued that it is closer to PvPthan normal PvE, going by the powers you want to use.

I have fought AVs. (I don't solo ALL the time, you know) I'm not just going on my own experience, though. I'm taking what I have heard from other players, both on the official boards and here, applying that to my own experience, and reaching conclusions based on my understanding of the behavior of the game.

I don't think that level is an indication of knowledge of the game, though. You really don't know what I have learned from playing the characters I have played, and I don't know what you have learned. Two people who play for the exact same period of time may still have different levels of knowledge.

So no, I haven't any real experience with the Statesman Task Force, and it's possible that I never will. But it is a Task Force, and I can use my experience from Task Forces, plus what other people are saying, and use that to form a conclusion. One that's at least as good as anyone else's conclusion about the Statesman Task Force since no one else has any experience with it either. :D

[Jade_Dragon]

A bubbler on a team levels just as fast as everyone else on the team. Primary, secondary or evil. A bubbler Def is a Team build out of the box.

The problem is there is no way to tell if that's better than a Dark, or Empathy, without going to the players involved and having them say, "Well, yeah, I can prevent more hits with FF, but Dark allows me to heal the hits that do get through, plus I can lay down a Tar Patch to give everyone a damage boost. And both sets have about the same amount of control aspects."

The devs have said that they don't balance the Power Sets against each other, they balance them against "their performance in the game". I'm saying that XP gain isn't a reliable metric of that in a group. I'm not really sure what is a reliable metric. (It certainly isn't HP healed, or damage taken)

I mean, to my mind if you're going to declare that so-and-so is a team oriented Power Set, then there should be NO QUESTION that it outperforms a more solo oriented one. There shouldn't be any "well, maybe a Rad or Dark should be better for your team." When you have a Force Fielder on your team, you should say, "I don't need any other Defender". But of course, that's contrary to the dev's design, which is that another Defender should always be needed. So the concept of "team only" is flawed.

I'll also add that if the only purpose of a Force Field Defender is to be in AV or Invincible teams, because his bubble protects better against extreme red and purple ranks than to hit debuffs (and in my experience the difference has been MINOR) that is NOT an adequate enough purpose. The same goes for FF having a percieved advantage in PVP because of a single power, or allowing pet Archetypes to use their pets with PFF up. An Archetype that is useful only under a limited, situational circumstance is NOT a useful Archetype.