Who wins? The Black Panther or Batman?

[Darknesse]

Thanks to the upcoming role of the Panther as one of the Major Players in Marvel, I think it is time to answer this question.

Honestly, I think that the Panther wins that one. It belongs in comic books, but I want to add a poll. If you think that it needs to move because of the poll, I can remove it.

It is multiple choice, so pick the ones you think applies.

I did see the Panther wander into Latveria and Punk Doom out after all. If you can do that to Doom you can do pretty much whatever you want to whomever you want.

I am going to kind of go over his advantages and some of his gear since alot of people have no idea what the Panther carries around with him (besides Storm).

I got all this from www.digitalpriest.com which is a GREAT site, and I strongly suggest checking it out (especially for us african americans. Alot of comic book history there for us). This is written by Christopher Priest (who wrote the Panther for a long time).


What are the Black Panther's powers?

The title "Black Panther" is a rank of office, chieftain of the Wakandan Panther Clan. As chieftain, the Panther is entitled to eat a special heart-shaped herb that grants him enhanced senses: hearing, smell, taste, agility, speed, balance and night vision. Like Wolverine, he can pick up a prey's scent and memorize tens of thousands of individual ones. For instance, if T'Challa ran into Peter Parker at a press conference, he would instantly know Parker was Spider-Man (I did a similar trick with Logan in SPIDER-MAN vs. WOLVERINE #1).

Beyond his enhanced senses, the Panther is an above-average athlete. He is probably faster than Captain America, and can certainly track prey better, but Cap is probably a bit stronger than T'Challa and may have greater endurance. The two are very similar in terms of their abilities and their zeal for justice. And, like Captain America, Panther will always find a way. Unflappable even in the face of great peril, Panther, like Cap, ignores the odds and keeps fighting for victory.

The Black Panther has a very simple set of toys. As an inventor, he could certainly pull the Fractal TechGear Deep Sea Panther Armor (TM) out of his hat, but we try to play by the rules we set out. Panther's basic arsenal is:

[1] an energy dagger. This is supposed to be a virtual dagger, with a typical, ornate hilt carved out of ivory or stone or something, and an energy-generated blade that can be set to stun or kill. Early in the run, the editors and artist decided the energy dagger blades could be either handled like an actual knife or fired like darts.

[2] a Kimoyo card. Kimoyo is Bantu for "Of the Spirit." It is kind of a Mother Box with tons of applications. It is basically a Palm Pilot amped to the Nth degree. It functions a lot like the Avengers' communicards, but with a lot more practical applications (in issue #14, for example, Panther called up a virtual schematic of a jumbo jet's cockpit controls and took command of the plane, landing it safely in a river).

[3] energy dampening soles in his boots. Energy regulators create varying fields from the Vibranium in the molded soles of the boots, enabling Panther to survive a fall of eight stories and land like a cat. Given enough momentum, Panther can also scale walls or walk on water, and the field can be also used offensively to shatter or weaken objects.

[4] the Panther's costume contains a Vibranium microweave mesh that works a lot like super-kevlar. The microweave robs incoming objects of their momentum (bullets do not ricochet off but simply fall to the ground when they come in contact with the weave). Likewise, the Panther cannot be stabbed, but the costume (and Panther) can be cut if the attacker slashes along the grain of the costume (see the Kraven fight in issue #7 and 8). The lenses in the mask cut glare and enhance his natural night vision. The claws in his gloves are made of Vibranium-based "Anti-Metal," and can break down most any metal known to man at the molecular level. In *theory*, Panther's claws could damage Captain America's shield, the hardest metal known to the Marvel Universe. But, that's, in *theory.* Combined with the Vibranium-soled boots, the claws enable Panther to scale any wall to any height, and even cling to the underbelly of a plane in flight (again, issue #14). The cloak can be elongated or shortened or eliminated with just a thought, and the entire costume can morph into King T'Challa's trademark black business suit (he usually steps into a shadow and emerges in the other outfit).

[Noble]

Super Man zips in and kills them both.

[Seadevil]

With prep time, Batman can beat just about anybody. In a spur-of-the-moment fight... I'm torn. I'll give it to Panther because I think he's a cooler character, but both guys would definately know they'd been in a fight. Panther is a great hand-to-hand guy, but he can't beat Captain America (who's offically the best hand-to-hand fighter in the MU). Batman, though, is the best guy in DC at the fisticuffs. Panther's enhanced abilities may give him an edge though so... It could go either way.

Panther and the warrior nation that is Wakanda vs Batman and the pencil pushers at Wayne Enterprises... Not a contest. Even in terms of sheer resources, Batman can't compete with Wakanda.

For the record, I think Cap could kick both their asses. :p

[Nerfed]

I'm going to have to vote against the grain on this one. Batman does not beat anyone just because he has time to prepare. His preparation allows him to cope with stuff that should be well beyond his abilities It doesn't guarantee him a victory, but it tips the odds significantly in his favor.

That said, I think Black Panther would find a way to beat Batman without preparation... even if Batman DID have time to prepare. Knowing what to expect and having some time to work with does not enable one fully anticipate and/or negate a foes advantages. Black Panther is, in my opinion, more cunning and infinitely more intelligent than Batman.

I think he would find and pick apart any traps Batman sets on his chosen field of battle, and I daresay what little he carries around (plus hits wits) would leave Batman amazed and desparately grasping at straws to handle the big cat.

And were it to come down to a physical fight, I thought Batman was talking tough when he admitted Captain America might be able to beat him... given time. I think he knew he couldn't win that fight based on watching Cap's move & counter-move against his own. Cap was confident, not needing to sooth his own ego that his foe might be better than him. He was resolute. You're not so good as to cause Batman to back out of a fight without being able to recognize how good Batman is, also.

That said, Black Panther may be as good a fighter as Captain America. Plus, I think his tactics are often a little less straight forward than Cap's, and this combination would make him easily a match for Batman... maybe better than a match.

Without time to prepare... allowing Batman to prepare... Black Panther for the win... in the library... with the lead pipe.

[Nerfed]

Oh, and as for Priest's assessments between Cap's & Panther's physical abilities, I think he's right...

Cap is a little stronger and definitely has more stamina (super soldier serum, yay for drugs!), but Panther is definitely faster.

However, as for the shield vs Panther's claws... I'm gonna disagree a little. Cap's shield is vibranium also, but its alloyed with Adamantium. One or the other might yield (depending on whether the adamantium is true or secondary) to his claws, but I think the unique properties of Cap's shield puts it beyond the claws --the best they'll do is scratch the paint.

Only things I've known of so far that have harmed the shield have been the power of the Beyonder and Thor hitting it with Mjolnir while backed up by the full might of the Odinpower. Wakandan tech may be quite t3h 4w3$0m3... but even he can't match the power of elder god-type beings.

[Quakester]

I think Bats wins with enough prep. Wakanda may have more resources but Batman is a detective and likely better at rooting out weaknesses and info about his foe.

As for Cap's shield. Cap's shield is the only known alloy created from True Adamantium and Vibranium ad is the single most indestructible thing in the Marvel Universe. It's strong enough to breach something else made from True adamantium. Vibranium, in and of itself, can't do squat to it.

[Darknesse]

The Panther did beat Cap up pretty quickly when they tangled last, I might add...

BP did go into freaking Doom's castle and walk out the victor for crying out loud. Nobody outplans Doom.. Except for BP.

[Nerfed]

I think Bats wins with enough prep. Wakanda may have more resources but Batman is a detective and likely better at rooting out weaknesses and info about his foe.
I'll give you that Batman is a far better detective... but he's detectiving against someone in this case that has no specific weaknesses beyond his own. Against BP, its more a matter of Batman learning past strategies, melee skills, and technology.

Black Panther is resourceful enough that he can change his tactics on the fly if he realizes that someone has studied him enough to anticipate specific strategems... and, I think he's smart enough to realize when a foe is anticipating his next moves like a chess master.

Melee skills can be studied and anticipated for by learning styles that specifically work well against them. The time needed to truly out-perform BP would probably be prohibitive and Batman would look for shortcuts.

Technology is a tough one. First, Batman may be able to learn specifics about Black Panther's technology... like the vibranium costume reducing impacts or in soles of his boots allow him to absorb the kinetic energy from a high fall or use them for offensive advantage... and he might be able to find a way to counter it --such as getting his hands on some vibranium for his own costume, or restricting their arena's vertical limits, keeping them both grounded. Doing stuff like that can work just as much against Batman, though.

I'm sure he could find an energy nullification device to render the energy daggers relatively useless... no problem. However, the claws are another matter entirely. You can just assume, no matter how much time he has to prepare, that he can just find something the claws won't cut through... short of Superman, but then it would be Black Panther vs. the World's Finest.

And, I'm sure Batman could learn all about BP's techno savvy and his super palm pilot thingy... but that doesn't mean he would be able to render it useless. It could (and likely is) too advanced for him to counter. Honestly, given how closely guarded a secret Wakandan technology is, I would be surprised if Batman could learn more than "he has some kind of handheld multi-purpose computer gizmo thingy."


I'm all for giving Batman his due for purposes of using his detective skills, preparation, and nigh-genius level foresight... but that doesn't mean he can figure everything out. If he could, there wouldn't be any repeat offenders or long term crime problems. But Batman is frequently plagued by villains who surprise him with a new trick or behavior and other stuff one just can't anticipate. All he can do is level the playing field in some cases, not tip it in his favor.

[Nerfed]

The Panther did beat Cap up pretty quickly when they tangled last, I might add...

BP did go into freaking Doom's castle and walk out the victor for crying out loud. Nobody outplans Doom.. Except for BP.
Not that I doubt you, but when was this?

The last time I recall them "tangling" was during the Contest of Champions II, and that one was pretty even with Cap ending up the victor... but Panther's heart clearly wasn't in it.

[Darknesse]

It was around Black Panther number 3 (the latest volume) I think.

[Nerfed]

I'm gonna have to dig through some boxes next time I visit the comic store. Thanks. :)

[Solario]

The Panther did beat Cap up pretty quickly when they tangled last, I might add...

BP did go into freaking Doom's castle and walk out the victor for crying out loud. Nobody outplans Doom.. Except for BP.

And Luke Cage. And Squirrel Girl. ;)

That being said Batman with Prep. Black Panther without. I do believe that he'd be able to intercept a good portion of secrets just given his abilities in business, industrial spying, ruthless methods etc. And I'm slightly torn on the whole Wayne Enterprises contra Wakanda. One is an entire country, and the other is supposedly one of the biggest companies in the world.

[coldcut]

And Luke Cage. And Squirrel Girl. ;)

That being said Batman with Prep. Black Panther without. I do believe that he'd be able to intercept a good portion of secrets just given his abilities in business, industrial spying, ruthless methods etc. And I'm slightly torn on the whole Wayne Enterprises contra Wakanda. One is an entire country, and the other is supposedly one of the biggest companies in the world.

Dr. Doom's secret weakness: black dudes.

[Seadevil]

Dr. Doom's secret weakness: black dudes.

"Where's my money, honey?" :lol:

[Charon]

Batman in every case because he's Batman.

But I'm a shameless fanboy. :)

[Nerfed]

That's a weak reason. I'm not a Black Panther fan, but I'll give him his due.

[Charon]

That's a weak reason. I'm not a Black Panther fan, but I'll give him his due.
... It wasn't supposed to be a well prepared, articulated, four page assessment of the battle, because I don't give that much of a shit.

[Seadevil]

Batman in every case because he's Batman.

But I'm a shameless fanboy. :)


And British. You're a shameless, British, filthy fanboy. I'm afraid there's no hope for you, Charon. :p

[Blackbat]

Simple answer to this is, "It's up to the writer.".

You could make a case for/against them both. All depends on which character you like best.

[Solario]

"Where's my money, honey?" :lol:

AND THIS IS A SAMPLE OF MY FIST!

And the whole fight issue between these two should be under the influence of the "Any Given Sunday" rule (stating that with people this skilled, where they would fall on a top 10 list can change depending on what they had for breakfast and what way the wind blows).

[Jade_Dragon]

Well, I think that if Batman admitted that Captain America could have taken him in a prolonged fight, due to his greater stamina, the same would probably be true of Panther. All the technological goodies aside (because I am quite sure Bats could either counter them or match them point for point) Black Panther, like Cap, has superior to human abilities.

I think Bats would recognize that, however, and realize that he can't win. It would then come down to desperation, and you probably can't really call that. Both characters are probably capable of anything when they pull out all the stops, so who knows? I can tell you I wouldn't want to be anywhere around if they got to that point. :D

[Seadevil]

As far as Panther beating Cap:

I remember this issue, but it was T'chaka, not T'challa, that beat Cap. I seem to recall the narrarator (Who I think is T'Challa as well) stating that Cap only lost because of his inexperience then (It was in early WWII).

[Masked Revenger]

I would have to give this one to Batman, with preperation. And here's why.

Batman cheats.

He would use whatever knoweldge he could find out on Panther and his powers, find a weakness, and find a way to exploit that weekness.

Without preparation, it would have to go to Panther.

Chris

[Jade_Dragon]

I would have to give this one to Batman, with preperation. And here's why.

Batman cheats.

He would use whatever knoweldge he could find out on Panther and his powers, find a weakness, and find a way to exploit that weekness.

Well, I think that's where I have the problem. I don't know Panther's character well enough to know if HE cheats, either. If it were Cap, there would be no question. Cap wouldn't cheat, so Bats would take him. (Even though he admitted he couldn't. But then, Bats knows that) Black Panther, though, it could come down to each of them trying to out manuever and out detective each other.

[Darknesse]

Well, as a King, T'challa does not quite look at an individual human life quite the same way as Wayne does. The rich kid with issues would hesitate where the Panther would not. In Wakanda, the Joker would have been dead at the hands of the Panther a long time ago. Problem Solved.

[Nerfed]

Well, I think that if Batman admitted that Captain America could have taken him in a prolonged fight, due to his greater stamina, the same would probably be true of Panther. All the technological goodies aside (because I am quite sure Bats could either counter them or match them point for point) Black Panther, like Cap, has superior to human abilities.

I think Bats would recognize that, however, and realize that he can't win. It would then come down to desperation, and you probably can't really call that. Both characters are probably capable of anything when they pull out all the stops, so who knows? I can tell you I wouldn't want to be anywhere around if they got to that point. :D
The only flaw in that assessment is that Batman admitted Cap could (probably) take him in a prolonged fight without knowing anything about the super soldier serum enhanced stamina. He was basing his assessment purely on speculation of Cap's skill. If he knew about the enhanced Stamina thing, he'd have to admit (to himself anyway) that there's no way he could outlast Cap in a fight.

[MajorMarvel]

thats a toughy, but I would have to go with Batman. Batman is just too good and I cant see Tchala winning in that fight.
As for people who Batman could possibly loose too, I'd have to say Spiderman, Wolverine, and any Psychic
With Spider-man, you get the fact that he's Random. Nothing he does is ever the same. He's Purley Instinct. Of course Batman could find MJ and use her as a way to get him to stop, much like he did with Lois Lane and Superman in Hush

With Wolverine, you got a berzerker who has more years of Experiance then Batman(realistically :P) and who is trained in all the stuff Batman Knows. He's a Killing Machine with the power to do so. Of course Wolverine is also a Samurai so his Honor would prevent him from trying to kill Batman. though if Batman gets him going good, he can bring out the Wild side of Logan and get him to loose his Focus. But its still real close

Then theres Psychics. Xavier could just shut his brain off, end of story :P