DM/DA Archvillain Destroyer (hypothetical)

[Krypto]

Ok, I rarely post builds, but I thought I would like to share my findings. At the request of vyxzuw, I've come up with a couple builds that *should* be able to take down AVs with more ease than Pre-I3 Invuln Scrappers. First I'm going to post the level 50 build, and in the next post, I'll post one for Picsi's level.

Level 50 Respec build:

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Exported from Ver: 1.4.6.0 of the CoH Hero Builder
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Name: DM/DA AV Destroyer
Level: 50
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary: Dark Melee
Secondary: Dark Armor
01) --> Shadow Punch==> Dmg(1) Dmg(3) Dmg(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(5)
01) --> Dark Embrace==> EndRdx(1) DmgRes(7) DmgRes(7) DmgRes(9) DmgRes(9) DmgRes(11)
02) --> Smite==> Dmg(2) Dmg(11) Dmg(13) Dmg(13) Dmg(15) EndRdx(43)
04) --> Shadow Maul==> Dmg(4) Dmg(15) Dmg(17) Dmg(17) Dmg(19) EndRdx(43)
06) --> Hasten==> Rechg(6) Rechg(19) Rechg(21) Rechg(21) Rechg(23)
08) --> Murky Cloud==> EndRdx(8) DmgRes(23) DmgRes(25) DmgRes(25) DmgRes(27) DmgRes(27)
10) --> Obsidian Shield==> EndRdx(10)
12) --> Combat Jumping==> DefBuf(12)
14) --> Super Jump==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Touch of Fear==> TH_DeBuf(16) TH_DeBuf(29) TH_DeBuf(29) TH_DeBuf(31) TH_DeBuf(31)
18) --> Hurdle==> Jump(18)
20) --> Health==> Heal(20)
22) --> Stamina==> EndRec(22) EndRec(33) EndRec(33) EndRec(33) EndRec(34) EndRec(34)
24) --> Dark Regeneration==> Heal(24) Heal(34) EndRdx(36) EndRdx(36)
26) --> Cloak Of Darkness==> EndRdx(26) DefBuf(36) DefBuf(37) DefBuf(50) DefBuf(50) DefBuf(31)
28) --> Dark Consumption==> EndRec(28) EndRec(37) EndRec(37) EndRec(39)
30) --> Acrobatics==> EndRdx(30)
32) --> Midnight Grasp==> Dmg(32) Dmg(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(40) Dmg(40) EndRdx(46)
35) --> Cloak Of Fear==> TH_DeBuf(35) TH_DeBuf(40) TH_DeBuf(42) TH_DeBuf(42) EndRdx(42) EndRdx(43)
38) --> Boxing==> Dmg(38)
41) --> Tough==> EndRdx(41)
44) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(44) Rechg(45) Rechg(45) Rechg(45) Rechg(46) Rechg(46)
47) --> Weave==> DefBuf(47) DefBuf(48) DefBuf(48) DefBuf(48) DefBuf(50)
49) --> Focused Accuracy==> EndRdx(49)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------

With that build, here are the stats: (assuming +2 enhancements)

Defense: Hasten, CJ, Weave, CoD
Melee = 50.5% All
Ranged = 50.5% All
AoE = 11.1% (Heh...)
Cloak of Fear will give an additional 49.04% Defense
Touch of Fear will give an additional 56.3% Defense EVERY TIME IT STACKS, and it llasts about 45 seconds, allowing you to stack it 3-4 times.

So, against an AV with standard Defense plus CoF and ToF stacked twice you *should* have 212.14% Defense.:o

Resistance:
Smash/Lethal = 62.3%
Fire/En/Cold = 55.1%
Neg = 63%
Toxic = 31.5
Psionic = 37.5%

An AV will hit you about 1 in 20 hits. With the resistances from the DA powerset, you should *never* be killed in one hit. When you do get hit, you can throw up a Dark Regeneration to heal yourself.

"But Krypto, what about the endurance usage?"
EPS = Endurance Per Second
With Stamina 6 slotted with +2 SOs, it will add an additional 1.92 EPS to the base 2 EPS rate giving you a total of 3.92 EPS gain with the Atlas medalion, and Portal Jockey Accolades.

Against an AV, you won't need Weave, it's just fluff. You may or may not want to use Acrobatics. Personally, I don't think you'll need it as it'll save you some endurance.
With Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Cloak of Fear, Cloak of Darkness, Combat Jumping, Tough, and Focused Accuracy, you'll be at 1.47 EPS gain. That's where Conserve power comes in. It'll cut the endurance cost of your powers, and give you a 2.7 EPS gain.

Conserve Power can't be made perma, unfortunately. It lasts 60 seconds, and has a recharge(with 6 SOs) of 154 seconds giving you a downtime of 94 seconds. Here's where player management comes in: You will have to manage your endurance usage by turning off unnecessary toggles(maybe Tough, etc.) and slowing down your attacks. When you are down to almost no endurance, fire off Dark Consumption. With 4 endurance recovery you should get about 80% endurance from one enemy. With Focused Accuracy on, you shouldn't miss. If you can last long enough for Conserve Power to come back up you will be golden. It might also be wise to carry a few extra CaBs just in case.

This is a purely hypothetical build that will need tested of course. If anyone has a level 50 and wants to try this out for me, I'd love to see how it works out.

[Krypto]

Respec build (try it on Test)

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Name: Picsi
Level: 45 (?)
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary: Dark Melee
Secondary: Dark Armor
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01) --> Smite==> Dmg(1) Dmg(3) Dmg(3) Dmg(43) Dmg(45) Acc(45)
01) --> Dark Embrace==> EndRdx(1) DmgRes(5) DmgRes(5) DmgRes(7) DmgRes(7) DmgRes(9)
02) --> Shadow Maul==> Dmg(2) Dmg(9) Dmg(11) Dmg(11) Dmg(13) Acc(13)
04) --> Murky Cloud==> EndRdx(4) DmgRes(15) DmgRes(15) DmgRes(17) DmgRes(17) DmgRes(19)
06) --> Touch of Fear==> TH_DeBuf(6) TH_DeBuf(19) TH_DeBuf(21) TH_DeBuf(21) TH_DeBuf(23) Acc(23)
08) --> Hasten==> Rechg(8) Rechg(25) Rechg(25) Rechg(27) Rechg(27)
10) --> Obsidian Shield==> EndRdx(10)
12) --> Combat Jumping==> DefBuf(12)
14) --> Super Jump==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Hurdle==> Jump(16)
18) --> Health==> Heal(18)
20) --> Stamina==> EndRec(20) EndRec(29) EndRec(31) EndRec(31) EndRec(31) EndRec(33)
22) --> Dark Regeneration==> EndRdx(22) EndRdx(33) EndRdx(33) Heal(34) Heal(29)
24) --> Cloak Of Darkness==> EndRdx(24) DefBuf(34) DefBuf(34) DefBuf(36) DefBuf(36) DefBuf(36)
26) --> Dark Consumption==> EndRec(26) EndRec(37) EndRec(37) Rechg(37)
28) --> Cloak Of Fear==> EndRdx(28) EndRdx(39) Acc(39) TH_DeBuf(39) TH_DeBuf(40) TH_DeBuf(40)
30) --> Soul Drain==> Rechg(30)
32) --> Midnight Grasp==> Dmg(32) Dmg(40) Dmg(42) Dmg(42) Dmg(42) Acc(43)
35) --> Shadow Punch==> Dmg(35) Dmg(43) Dmg(45) Dmg(46) Dmg(46) Acc(46)
38) --> Boxing==> Empty(38)
41) --> Tough==> EndRdx(41)
44) --> Conserve Power==> Rechg(44) Rechg(48) Rechg(48) Rechg(48)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------

Here are the basic stats:

Defense:
Melee/Ranged = 30.8%
AoE = 11.1%

Cloak of Fear will add 41.78%
Touch of Fear will add 56.3%

Resistance:
Smash/Lethal = 62.3
Fire/En/Cold = 55.1
Neg = 63
Toxic = 31.5
Psi = 37.5


EPS for running DE, MC, OS, CoF, CoD, CJ, and Tough is 2.02 gain. With Conserve Power running, you'll have 2.97 EPS.

[vyxzuw]

Technically, you brought up using ToF and CoF to try to fight an AV, and wanted to know if I'd try it on test.

I asked what other powers to use. (And then got an idea that we should try to work out a good build for DA. Using DM or otherwise.)

I'm fine with Picsi's build. It's poor on end gain, but I can solo inv missions without dying, so I'm good.

Here's the build that Picsi has now, to compare:
Dark Melee:
Smite 1ACC 5DAM
Shadow Maul 1ACC 5DAM
Siphon Life 1ACC 5HEAL
Dark Consumption 1ACC 5 RECHARGE
Soul Drain 1ACC 3 RECHARGE
Midnight Grasp 1ACC 5DAM (one is a DAM/MEZ Hammy...)

Dark Armor:
Dark Embrace 2END 2RES (2 more RES by 50)
Murky Cloud 2END 2RES (2 more RES by 50)
Obsidian Shield 2END 2RES (2 more RES by 50)
Dark Regeneration 1ACC 3END 1RECHARGE
Cloak of Darkness 1END 5DEF
Cloak of Fear 2END 1ACC 3ACCDEBUFF
Death Shroud 2END 1ACC 3DAM
Soul Transfer 1RECHARGE

Dark Mastery:
Petrifying Gaze 1ACC
Dark Blast 1ACC
(Tenebrous Tentacles 1ACC at 47)

Pool:
Combat Jumping 1JUMP
Swift 1RUN
Super Jump 1JUMP
Health 1HEAL
Stanima 6ENDRECOVER
Acrobatics 1END
(Hasten 1RECHARGE at 49....perhaps)
***
On the build. CoF and ToF do NOT give DEF. The give ACC Debuff.
Most AVs will have ~100% ACC. So, it will act similar. However, there are some problems if the AV uses an ACC buff.

The formula is base*(1+buff-debuff)=total.

Also, both CoF and ToF have to HIT to work. (Usually not a problem against AVs, but it can be...)

Also. CoF has a 25% base debuff. With 4 even SOs, that would be 58.33%. (Have no idea on ToF)

Um, also...where's Siphon Life? Why use Dark Regen (with the huge end cost) against one target, when Siphon will do?

Not sure on ACC with that build. How much of a boost does FA give?
***
Edit: guide comments are for the first one.
***
Edit: Remember, that CoF has a 50% to hit now. (I'm not sure if the Fear duration was reduced, as I use DS, which triggers it. The ACC Debuff last the BASE Fear time...and noone is sure if the fear is linked to the debuff. ie. if it's not feared, it may not necessarily be debuffed...)
***
Edit: In order to get a consistant Debuff from CoF, you need to give it a 100% Acc buff. (Three ACC SOs, or perhaps 2SOs and a boost from another source.) If you don't, you'll have gaps where you're vulnerable. (Unless you can stack ToF enough. This is especially true for AoE attacks, as CoF and ToF are your main AoE 'defense'.)

[Extractor]

Looks solid, good job Krypto.

One (very) small adjustment: I might move some slots from Cloak of Darkness to 6-slot both Dark Consumption and Touch of Fear. I couple recharges on Dark Consumption would be nice and ToF has a higher base defense (actually a To-Hitt debuff) then Cloak of Darkness.

I'm interested to see how this build holds up vs. AV's. You'd have to follow Kypto's advice on endurance management. Also, this build can/should toggle Focused Accuracy on and off as needed depending on Soul Drain status.

Hey Krypto, any advice on a Katana/DA build? I'm thinking of trying one based on stacking Divine Avalanches in my attack-chain.

thanx

[Krypto]

Looks solid, good job Krypto.

One (very) small adjustment: I might move some slots from Cloak of Darkness to 6-slot both Dark Consumption and Touch of Fear. I couple recharges on Dark Consumption would be nice and ToF has a higher base defense (actually a To-Hitt debuff) then Cloak of Darkness.

Yeah, it's totally up to you. The reason I have Cloak of Darkness and Weave slotted like that, is because Vyx wanted me to post something that would work well in normal missions as well. IMO, 50% defense and 60+% resistance should work out really well.
As for Dark Consumption, I've tested it out on my DM/Inv Scrapper against AVs, and I've found that it really doesnt need any recharges. Once Conserve Power wears off, you can manage your endurance until you absolutely need to use it. With 4 End Recovery, you should get 80% from one opponent, which is perfect for AVs.

I'm interested to see how this build holds up vs. AV's. You'd have to follow Kypto's advice on endurance management. Also, this build can/should toggle Focused Accuracy on and off as needed depending on Soul Drain status.
That is, of course, another alternative. I didn't really think about it. Maybe you might try 3 slotting Soul Drain with 2 To Hit Buff and 1 Accuracy? Or 3 To Hit Buff, and use it while FA is on and then toggle it off. :)

Hey Krypto, any advice on a Katana/DA build? I'm thinking of trying one based on stacking Divine Avalanches in my attack-chain.

thanx

I'll see what I can come up with today. Are you wanting an AV killer, or something that is good for anything?

[vyxzuw]

Um, you did read my note on CoF having a 50% to hit?

Without a 100% ACC bonus, it will have gaps.

This means that the AV will have periods where it will only have ToF affecting it's AoE attacks.

(It may still work, since you can stack ToF. However, non-DM DA scrappers will need CoF to have around 3ACC SOs.)

[Extractor]

I'll see what I can come up with today. Are you wanting an AV killer, or something that is good for anything?

All around play. (One thing about CoH that bothers me is the trend towards needed specialization of builds for a single toon, especially scrappers, with 3 paths so far: PvE normal, PvE vs. AV, and PvP.)

Um, you did read my note on CoF having a 50% to hit?

Yep, good point. My scrapper is DM/Regn so I don't have much experience with CoF. Looks like a good tactic for endurance conservation and accuracy/defense is needed now between CoF, Soul Drain, and Focused Acc. Let me know what evolves here, DM/DA would be a very fun build; I get a little bored with my xxx/regn and it's little more than 'flip on toggles and know where to stand and when to back up' tactics.

[vyxzuw]

With CoF slotted with 3 ACC and 3 ACCDebuff. You should have a consitant 50% ACC debuff. Of course, this will mean more end drain. (FA or SD or other method can be used to remove one ACC, and add an end reducer.) (CoF end drain: 0.71 With one end: .5325 with two end: .426 with three: .355 However, I've seen several numbers on it's cost. You have two. So, I'm loosing with .1065 with 2 acc and an end. Or .284 with 3 acc)

However, you can also make up the end by having end reducers in your other powers.

DE with 2End and 4Res will give you a 40.5% S/L res. 27% Toxic. and 27% Neg. It's end drain will be 0.39*(1/1+2/3)=0.39*(.6)=.234 (.2925 with one end a .0585 gain. So, we're at with 2a1e: .048 loss or 3a: .2255 loss) (This looses only 4.5% res. With Tough you get 55.5%) You may need Tough, due to the commanality of S/L. The idea is to be able to not be one-shotted by an AV. (With a 5% to hit, you should be able to only heal between hits.) Krypto said a 2k attack. At 40% res, that will be a 1.2k attack. (Picsi has 1.4k hp. 1.2k without the accolade.) (Without Tough, you will have less S/L res, but will also have more end gain. Can't find the end numbers though.)

MC with 3 end and 3 res will give you a 41.6% F/C/E and a 24% neg. (51% total.) IT's end drain will be 0.39*(1/1+1)=.195 (0.2925 with one end. A 0.0975 gain. So, total, we have 2a1e: .0495 GAIN with 3a:.128 loss) (Again, 40% res is hit, or exceeded.)

OS with 2end and 1 res will give 45% Psi. (Two more slots than you have. Which means two less slots somewhere else. Could take them from Weave...with a 100% acc debuff, and CoD at 20%, you will do well on missions. See my build. So, we gain the same amount we did for DE: 0.0585 So, 2a1e: .108 gain with 3a: .0695 loss)

Now, we don't NEED CoD at ALL. We have a constistant (assuming we keep using ToF) acc debuff. So, we gain .39 Thus 2a1e: .498 gain 3a: .3205 gain. We don't need CJ either. (FA will cut down on the 2a1e gain.)

You use DE (.2925) MC (.2925) OS (.2925) CoF (.426) CoD (.2925) CJ (no idea, but minor) Tough (Again, no idea) Total: 1.596+CJ&Tough.

New idea: DE (.234) MC (.195) OS (.234) CoF (.71) (Perhaps Tough.) So: 1.373(+Tough)

(Although, both depend on spamming ToF...)

(You also may want to add Siphon Life, for healing.)

[Rom]

Y'all barking up the wrong tree with this. Spamming ToF and trying to rely on the resistances + joke of fear doesn't work post I4.

But it did work pre-I4 as several AVs discovered when I visited them.

[Extractor]

New idea: DE (.234) MC (.195) OS (.234) CoF (.71) (Perhaps Tough.) So: 1.373(+Tough)
Looks good, thanks for the math. Not sure on how many slots this leaves for Touch of Fear (base 20% accuracy debuff, recharge around 4 seconds), but you can easily stack 3-4 in your attack chain without hurting your DPS. So if this build allows for even only 4 acc.debuff enhancements then ToF will debuff by 135-180% (based on 3 to 4 ToF's @ 45% debuff each).


(You also may want to add Siphon Life, for healing.)
Agreed. This differentiates the build towards an AV (single target) killer even more.

Y'all barking up the wrong tree with this. Spamming ToF and trying to rely on the resistances + joke of fear doesn't work post I4.
Ummm, Rom could you add something to this discussion that's a little more objective? I'd really like to hear what you have to say, but just saying something doesnt work is not very helpful.

[vyxzuw]

Y'all barking up the wrong tree with this. Spamming ToF and trying to rely on the resistances + joke of fear doesn't work post I4.

If what you say about it working BEFORE I4 is correct. Then all you need to do is bring the ACC back up. (Use 3 ACC)

(If, as you say it worked pre-I4)

Not sure on how many slots this leaves for Touch of Fear (base 20% accuracy debuff, recharge around 4 seconds), but you can easily stack 3-4 in your attack chain without hurting your DPS.

Well, if you use Krypto's posted build. All I did was change some res into end. (I did need two extra slots for OS, but you can take them from Weave. I get by in Inv missions without it. I also don't have tough. So, you can survive in PvE. You'll need to use CoD. Once you reach the AV, you stealth up to him...which CoD allows, and tag him with ToF, and let CoF hit. Then you can drop CoD, and proceed to fight.)

Agreed. This differentiates the build towards an AV (single target) killer even more.

Plus, with DR AND Siphon Life, you can heal REAL fast, if need be. (Would burn end fast though, but useful if you get tagged with a massive attack.) However, you need to drop a power to add this. I'd suggest Shadow Punch. (Allowing Siphon Life to have slots. I'd suggest Heals, with a ACC, or using another ACC method.)

So if this build allows for even only 4 acc.debuff enhancements then ToF will debuff by 135-180% (based on 3 to 4 ToF's @ 45% debuff each).

What's the base Debuff of ToF?

[Extractor]

What's the base Debuff of ToF?
20% base, 45+ seconds duration (maybe higher but I forget as I haven't played my DM/Regen in a month or two), animation time of 2-3 seconds, and recharge around 8 seconds base. Again these numbers may be off a bit, but I'm sure about the base for the Accuracy Debuff.

Plus, with DR AND Siphon Life, you can heal REAL fast, if need be. (Would burn end fast though, but useful if you get tagged with a massive attack.) However, you need to drop a power to add this. I'd suggest Shadow Punch. (Allowing Siphon Life to have slots. I'd suggest Heals, with a ACC, or using another ACC method.)
For this build I'd just switch out DR for Siphon Life, imo. Shadow Punch while not impressive at first glance has such a quick animation and recharge that it's DPS is very nice and it also has a 5% accuracy debuff of 10 seconds that stacks with all you other debuffs.

I may be wrong here (I'll look this up and post the correct info later if I am wrong) but all DM attacks have a base accuracy debuff of 5% for 10 seconds except for Midnight grasp is a little higher/longer and of course Touch of Fear.

IMO, since soloability comes down to combat survivability instead of damage the only primary scrapper sets that can come close to DM are Katana (with stacking Divine Avalanches) and maybe Spines (with Slows). In a lengthy argument made short: since scrappers are between tanks and blaster in damage and combat survivability look at the two extremes, blasters & tanks; and which has the better combat survivability? So a scrapper closer to a tank (DM/xxxx, Katana/xxx) is better than a scrapper closer to a blaster (BS/xxx).


Edit:

Ok here's the stats on the debuffing of Dark Melee except for Siphon Life.
All attacks give a 5% base accuracy debuff of 6 seconds.
exceptions:
Soul Drain 8% for 30 seconds (the length of the SD buff)
Dark Consumption none
Midnight Grasp 10%

Touch of Fear: has a bonus 20% accuracy to hit, 1 second animation, 20% base accuracy debuff for a duration of 45 seconds, and a recharge of ~4 seconds (assuming perma-Hasten).

[vyxzuw]

For this build I'd just switch out DR for Siphon Life, imo.

Except that you cut out PvE survivability. (Against mobs, it's better to use DR than Siphon Life.)

The build idea is too have a build that can fight through PvE, and also well against AVs.

(If you want a pure AV, you could cut out CoD, for instance, since you don't need it against single targets, however, you loose PvE ability.)

(You can also remove Tough. And Weave. Neither are needed for AVs or PvE. I do well without them in PvE, and you need just 40% res to insure not being one shot on a once in awhile 5% hit. This also allows two powers if one wanted.)

With Hasten, I've noticed that you can cycle through Shadow Maul, Midnight Grasp and Smite without gaps. (Or a small enough gap, that ToF can fill it.)

Krypto argued once, that Boxing/Shadow Punch is better than Shadow Maul, so you could substitute SM for SL.