Marvel, Cryptic, and Microsoft, Officially Creating the Marvel MMO

[MajorMarvel]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=85621

Woah

[Meltman]

Ha! I so called it! (And Unsub too for that matter.)

[Charon]

Hahaha.

I might play it when it comes out sometime never.

[Blackbat]

Wow, nice. I'm rooting for it to work.

[Titomancer]

I have a funny feeling about this...

[Blackbat]

I can see some major Official Forum shit going down eventually. "They get <insert something new here> and we don't? I'm quitting!"

[MajorMarvel]

Eh, I'm sticking with City of Heroes even if it does come out. City of Heroes isnt hindered by Years and Years of Backstory plus I can keep characters with marvel Names like Protocide and Games Master

not to mention that Marvel would probably have the final say on every thing so Cryptic cant go nuts with it with their own stuff.

[Titomancer]

What I'm concerned about is who owns the characters. With cryptic, they werent a comic book company, so they didnt have quite so much oportunity to use the characters. But who among you would want Marvel pulling some shadey shit and putting your character into a comic with no credit to you and quite possibly get the character horribly wrong and deny that anyone but them created it? I dont know about anyone else, but I dont want my creation taken and used without at least a nod in my direction.

Granted, there's no garantee that they'll use the characters, but I think its an issue that they should be sure and address. Especially for folks like Veikira, who use their characters in an actual comic.

There's a few more things about this that make me nervous that it could end badly, but I'd like to play the game, as I do enjoy the marvel universe.

[T!M]

Wait a minute....Marvel throws lawsuits at Cryptic and turns around and partners with them for their MMO?


*chuggs on a strong drink*

[Seadevil]

Meh. I'll probably check it out, but seems like it's years off still.

[Grae Knight]

I will definitely play it. Sounds good to me! And I don't really care who owns my character. Hell, Cryptic owns your character now and can put them in their comic book at anytime and make them do gigs at childrens birthday parties if they like.

[Titomancer]

Yes, but Cryptic's comic isnt 30 different comics, its 1, and its not very well circulated. And even then, dont they send you an email saying they'll use you're character? Since Cryptic isnt a comic company, this isnt an issue, but with Marvel...I just worry about misrepresentation and theft of the character. Granted, they'll own it anyway, but I worry about them pulling shadey shit and just ganking it without any credit or input from the actual creator of the character.

[Solario]

At least something good came out of that dispute.

PS. Someone needs to scan the first couple of pages from Runaways #1 and I'm not risking bent pages with my HC.

[Xielos]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I sense bad juju.

[Charon]

Hahaha, Stan Lee will be in it as a contact.

God, what a farce.

[Titomancer]

Well, Stan has pretty much had a cameo in every marvel production, I see no difference here. I dont particularly mind, as I like cameos.

[Blackbat]

I like cameos too, so long as he doesn't show up as Stan Lee. I mean, that would ruin the RP of it.

Stan Lee: Hello, hero. I'm Stan Lee, I created Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, The Hulk and just about every other Marvel character you have ever heard of. I'm here to guide you through the tutorial process and help you learn your newfound powers.

Hero: Um...I just saw Spider-Man, out at Central Park. He gave me this beacon so that I could contact him if I needed help.

Stan Lee: Yes, that's right. He's your noob level contact.

Hero: What?

Stan Lee: Yes, once you get enough XP you can meet my other intellectual creations.

Hero: *breaks character* I'm trying to role playing here, asshole!

[Charon]

No... He's going to be Stan Lee, the article would suggest.

Which is what I have a problem with. He's gone crazy as he's gotten older, I swear.

[Titomancer]

He'll probably be the tutorial contact, or maybe he'll just be a contact named Stan Lee, and not have a backstory (not every contact needs to tell you what they are). I wager that they'll still have Marvel Comics in the world, just not address what comics they put out. Although they might use MidTown Comics (I remember them doing that from the Spiderman Movie games) and stick him around there.

Or perhaps a throwback to the old days, he might even do a voiced over intro (a la Auto Assault, to mention an MMO that's done that recently)

I dont know about anyone else, but it would give me warm fuzzies to log in, create a character, and get a quick pan through the city while hearing, "Welcome, True Beleivers"

[Masked Revenger]

Doesn't Marvel Comics exist within the 616 Universe? They do "fictional" comic stories based on the 616 heroes, such as the Avengers.

Stan Lee could exist in that context.

Chris

[Titomancer]

Doesn't Marvel Comics exist within the 616 Universe? They do "fictional" comic stories based on the 616 heroes, such as the Avengers.

Stan Lee could exist in that context.

Chris

I dont even know what the hell 616 is, but if thats the regular plain ol marvel universe, I think so. EXCELSIOR!!!!!

[MajorMarvel]

Still think this game will suck :P Not gonna touch it. I hate MMOs based off Propertys and I will stick with my COH Thank you.

[WingedAvenger]

This news makes me both happy and sad. I'm glad to see the Marvel MMO get some serious backing, but at the same time, I was looking forward to trying out a superhero MMO that was made by someone other than the guys at Cryptic.

[8 Ball]

Well...business-wise it's genius, Cryptic will continue to own the Super-hero MMO "niche" that they created, really...who better to design your own competition than yourself? :D.

EDIT: Just in case it hasn't been posted yet, here's Cryptics response to their fans via the company website:

September 27, 2006
A LETTER TO OUR FANS:
When we saw the opportunity to work with Marvel to create their super hero universe, we couldn’t resist. We love comic book heroes. The masked hero genre started over sixty years ago. Its stories, characters and themes have changed with our society. Nearly every type of story imaginable has found its way into the colorful pages of a comic book. That’s one of the main reasons that we feel that there’s plenty of room for more than just one comic book hero game in the MMORPG space. Fans will have an option about the world they will play in, just like they do with the half dozen fantasy titles available. Cryptic prides itself in creating games that we are passionate about based on genres that we know and enjoy. We were excited to find out that Cryptic and Microsoft shared the same vision for a massively multiplayer game based in the Marvel universe, rich with storylines and characters we’ve all grown up with.

Each universe provides players unique characters to play. City of Heroes allowed players to bring their characters into a generic comic book setting. We specifically wanted CoH/V to be broad enough to appeal to the genre as a whole, rather than any specific portion of it. We’re fully committed to City of Heroes and City of Villains. They are our first games, in a universe we devised. These products are the foundation upon which Cryptic is built. Cryptic and NCSoft are jointly investing in a team dedicated solely to creating and maintaining City of Heroes and City of Villains. We will continue to update both titles with new content, including a multi-year storyline, gameplay systems, missions, and much, much more. As a company, we are dedicated to our fans and plan to implement often requested ideas and features. For example, Issue 9 brings to City of Heroes and City of Villains a huge new gameplay system: Inventions. Players will be able to craft Enhancements and Costume pieces for their characters using recipes, and salvage what they find while adventuring.

Compared to the fantasy MMO games, the possibilities for the comic book hero universe are grossly untapped. Creating two worlds that will grow in their own ways means the true potential of the comic book hero MMO can come into its own. For the “City of” games, this expansion of the market probably means an influx of new MMO players who have heard of the Marvel characters but not “City of Heroes,” and will likely try both.

FAQ



Are you taking resources away from CoH/CoV?

Cryptic has a team of programmers, artists, designers, and producers dedicated solely to creating and maintaining both products. The studio will continue to update both titles with new content, including a multi-year storyline, a new gameplay system that allows characters to craft Enhancements and Costume pieces, brand new missions, and much, much more.


How many people at Cryptic will be devoted to the CoH/CoV team?

Our current team is as large as the one who developed City of Heroes. The team is, and will remain, separate from the team working on the Marvel MMO with Microsoft.


What’s the future for City of Heroes/Villains?

We are absolutely committed to our loyal fans of City of Heroes and City of Villains. We are dedicating our own resources to keep both games exciting and fresh for our players for years to come. As a company, we’re thrilled at the prospects of the City franchise. It shows no signs of going away! We have plans to continue its growth for years to come.


Is the new Marvel title going to replace CoH/CoV?

No! The comic book hero is its own genre, capable of supporting multiple titles, just like fantasy. Currently there are numerous successful fantasy massively online games in the market, and we are confident that the market can support more than one game based on the pages of comic books.


Do you think there’s room for two super hero MMORPG’s?

The MMO market has proven to be more expansive and mainstream than ever. There is definitely room in the market for both titles. It’s like saying Half-Life would kill Quake, or Halo kill Unreal.


What will differentiate the Marvel game and CoH/CoV?

We haven’t announced details on the Marvel title, but it will be a very different game in terms of gameplay and visuals from the “City of” games. The storylines and the challenges characters will face from them will be very different. The Marvel game is focused on, well, the Marvel Universe. As comic book and movie fans already know, Marvel has its own unique style that sets it apart from the other comic book publishers. Our goal is to distil the Marvel experience and put that into the game. We’re also developing the Marvel game as a title for Windows Vista and the Xbox 360 – which presents us with a set of new hurdles in technology and design. We’re starting off at a completely different point than we did with City of Heroes.


Are you planning to exclusively make comic book hero games?

No – this particular partnership was something rather unique. We are, however, a company dedicated to making great MMORPG’s.


Why are you working with Marvel after they sued you two years ago?

Marvel holds the best intellectual properties, and we’re the best developer of MMO games. It’s a match made in heaven. At the end of the day, when two creative organizations are passionate about their visions sometimes sparks fly. The suit with Marvel was settled amicably long ago, and we’re excited about working together.


Why not work with NC Soft?

NC Soft and Cryptic continue to have a great relationship; we are jointly supporting and growing City of Heroes and City of Villains. Because Cryptic is an independent developer, we’re always looking for good projects with strong publishers that will bring our great gameplay to our customers.


link (http://crypticstudios.com/news.php)

[MajorMarvel]

I hope they are gonna do their best to keep City of Heroes and City of Marvels. All I ask is COH keeps getting the good backing it does as Cryptics lovechild. Keep getting all those awesome updates.

[Titomancer]

yes, business-wise it is genius, but then there's the problem of having no Competition to force you to make a better and better product to keep up. Basically, what's Cryptic gonna lose if the Marvel game is better than CoH/V? Whichever you choose to play, they win, so they could, in theory, let CoH/V atrophy, or swing the nerf-bat willy nilly with abandon. Again, not saying they will, but they could, because if you're looking for a superhero mmo, you have Cryptic and Cryptic to choose from.

[Xielos]

Cryptic needs more spite.

[Noble]

Asked if the Marvel MMO will be a similar flavor to City of Heroes and City of Villains, Emmert said that the assumption that the game will be just like CoH with a Marvel overlay isn’t quite true.

I don't like the part where Emmert says "that isn't quite true. To me it sounds like, "yes, it will be similar, but different simply because it is marvel".

[iggy880]

I'm calling it now: Crap or Greatness....that;s all that can come from this.


*Starts playing Billy Joel-I go to Extremes*

[Yellow Wolf]

I dont even know what the hell 616 is, but if thats the regular plain ol marvel universe, I think so. EXCELSIOR!!!!!
616 = regular marvel universe

[Morcalivan7]

They couldn't have gotten a fresh developer? What a waste.

[Maveric]

although i'm not currently active in CoH, i haven't given up on the game yet... i'm just waiting for some new powers, archetypes, or gameplay features that i find interesting enough to warrant my re-activation.

i'm highly interested in the Marvel/Cryptic MMO. i'll definitely be joining their forums and signing up for beta. *keeps eyes peeled*

i only have time/money for one MMO so it basically depends on which one IMO is the better game. I have a feeling that the Marvel game will benefit moreso from all of Cryptic's mistakes/errors on CoH. all i'm asking for is jawdropping graphics, cool costumes, a wide variety of numerous and preferrably customizable powers/ equipment, and action-packed gameplay features. i don't give a shit about XP grinding.. i just want to be able to come home, jump on the computer and play a kick ass hero, and when i get tired of that hero be able to choose from a WIDE variety of other heroes with different abilities. No cookie cutter heroes please. Fuck Game Balance. Just give me a hero that kicks Ass and looks cool doing it.

-Mav

[Xielos]

I think I'll just hold out for Exteel, only game I see in my future.

[Graphite]

*wishes he got that job call back*
:|

[Maveric]

they have a video trailer already up on the cryptic website...

http://crypticstudios.com/movies/Marvel_Universe_Online.wmv

-Mav

[T!M]

I still find it funny that these two team up to make this MMO.

Anyhoo...

Hulk SMASH!

[Joe Schmoe]

I'm excited. I can't wait to try it out. :) One little thing..

The fact that all of our servers were up and running – we didn’t have queues, we didn’t have crashes – those are the important things.

What?! What game did you play?!

[Blackbat]

they have a video trailer already up on the cryptic website...

http://crypticstudios.com/movies/Marvel_Universe_Online.wmv

-Mav

We all know Cryptic can make some awesome trailers. If the game can live up to it, is the challenge. That trailer has me inspired btw. I hope they don't mess this up.

[D'Arkaine]

I'm not sure if I'm happy or sad...I kinda feel like i got kicked in the #@$$s... but not in a good way.

[Maveric]

I'm not sure if I'm happy or sad...I kinda feel like i got kicked in the #@$$s... but not in a good way.

I just hope that the Marvel Game is not a disappointment because I'll probably have the same reaction after CoV came out... basically that being I felt they should have utilized their time creating those new archetypes/powers for CoH instead and most of those were just rehashed powers from CoH to begin with.

I know cryptc has different teams working on different projects but man, imagine if all three teams were working on CoH. We'd probably have a dozen new Archetypes and powersets by now along with the ability to customize you powers (graphically)...

Bah... i just hope that Marvel will be a great game and if it isn't hopefully CoH will have made many more interesting improvements to win back my money/interest.

To be honest, I'm more curious than anything...

-Mav

[Yin]

If you won't be able to play as Wolverine, Spiderman, or Black Cat, I won't see the difference really. The downfall to that is you could possibly have 60 Cyclops and 95 Hulks running around in the same spot.

[Blizzardo]

If you won't be able to play as Wolverine, Spiderman, or Black Cat, I won't see the difference really.

The difference will be that Marvel Comics will own your character concepts instead of a startup video game studio.

[coldcut]

No more mutants.

By which I mean, 300 million more mutants.

[Poison]

Microsoft is involved.
The game will reflect changes in the comics -> merchandise machine (get special items by buying a TPB or pre-ordering a comic, putting together a code by buying a series, etc.)
As mentioned, I don't see the difference between CoH and MU when you play rookie heroes. Professor X and Jean Grey are the most powerful telepaths, Magneto the most powerful magnetism master, Hulk the strongest... so my hero will never be the best in anything?
Marvel WILL own the rights to your characters, which for me is a big no-no.
Emmert is the director, and though he did help create CoH, I didn't like his work over the last months before Positron took over. From the interview it also sounds as if he's doing this to realize one of his dreams firstmost.

I am pretty sure that the game will be more of a skill/point system ruleset. All Marvel RPGs were based on this and this would make it different compared to CoH.

[Remianen]

I found this part funny:

Why are you working with Marvel after they sued you two years ago?

Marvel holds the best intellectual properties, and we’re the best developer of MMO games.

I guess "best" doesn't equate to "most successful" in this case. Must be like how Firefox is the best browser. Though I'm sure the folks at Blizzard and SOE (love 'em or hate 'em, the numbers don't lie) would take issue with that statement....or not care after seeing through the bluster of it.

[MajorMarvel]

Microsoft is involved.
The game will reflect changes in the comics -> merchandise machine (get special items by buying a TPB or pre-ordering a comic, putting together a code by buying a series, etc.)
As mentioned, I don't see the difference between CoH and MU when you play rookie heroes. Professor X and Jean Grey are the most powerful telepaths, Magneto the most powerful magnetism master, Hulk the strongest... so my hero will never be the best in anything?
Marvel WILL own the rights to your characters, which for me is a big no-no.
Emmert is the director, and though he did help create CoH, I didn't like his work over the last months before Positron took over. From the interview it also sounds as if he's doing this to realize one of his dreams firstmost.

I am pretty sure that the game will be more of a skill/point system ruleset. All Marvel RPGs were based on this and this would make it different compared to CoH.

I hear ya Poison. Your hero cant be the best at anything. When it comes to COH, atleast the higher hero NPCs are treated as just other heroes who were there first but not in charge and it lets you do your own thing.
And Jack did seem like he lost his way in the end. I think Posi is a better Developer and Jack might end up tanking MU, throwing in things that he chose not to do in COH. All I care though is that we still get good crap. So far all the people I've talked about this with from COH have been adamantly against switching over so thats cool for me.

[Meltman]

I'm excited. I can't wait to try it out. :) One little thing..



What?! What game did you play?!


Joe, read this as "We weren't nearly as bad as World of Warcraft at launch."

They're talking about the launch. In terms of MMOs, CoH had one of the smoothest launches out there.

[Titomancer]

The 1 advantage I can see to MUO is that there is not worry about copyright infringement risks in terms of powers. So, yes, Claws, Regeneration, Eyebeams, Magentism, Teleportation (the cool combat kind, Flurry-esque), and a host of other powers and looks that Marvel wouldve pitched a fit over in CoH will now be available. While thats cool and all, I don't think it will be enough. Im curious, and I will be trying (read, waiting for the information to come to me cause I'm not gonna make an effort) to keep an eye on this and see how its going. I'm a huge fan of the Marvel Universe (even though its fucked up beyond all repair by a lot of crappy stories) so this holds appeal for me. I won't leave CoH unless it goes completely to shit, but I'll look at MUO. Who knows, maybe the engine, since its on a console, will be much more action oreinted (Im hoping for influences from the Xmen Legends and Marvel Ultimate Alliance games, ie total carnage)

[The Icy One]

Well.. I'm officially most interested in the DC MMO over the Marvel one now, don't get me wrong.. it's cool that Cryptic is working on the Marvel one, but I don't care what they say.. it's gonna take from working on CoH/V, they could have all those extra people working on updates or exansions rather that a Marvel MMO. I'll probably try the Marvel one, but now I kind of feel bad for investing in CoH in a way, because I think this could start CoH going downhill, who do they have to impress? They are making the only other FOR SURE super hero MMO.. DC needs to get some news out.

[Mezzanine]

Well I for one am not going to sit here and speculate about how this whole ordeal is going to play out because it could have good or bad results. I have to admit it makes me a bit nervous for Coh/Cryptic that they have had trouble with marvel in the past and marvel has a reputation for loving to sue everything they can possibly sue. I was excited when I heard this game was coming out, and the table top CoH game. I do plan on playing it but I will not give up CoH. I just hope this does not start some sort of mass unappeal twards CoH because Cryptic is making something new with a big name. Maybe the hardcore CoH lovers will prove to be unbreakable.

[Masked Revenger]

DC needs to get some news out.

DC signed with Sony to do their MMO. They have the exact same ammount of news that Marvel has out.

Chris

[Charon]

I'm sticking with CoH, because:

1) Marvel are an evil corporate machine.
2) DC signed with sony.

So I'll stay here, thanks very much.

[Meltman]

Um, since when did Marvel become an evil corporate machine? (I mean, more evil than any other corporation.)

[Charon]

When they started suing everybody and anybody for anything they possibly can.

I'm not just talking about CoH - They sent a cease and desist to a Freedom Force website that was offering skins of Marvel characters, for christ's sake.

They're ridiculous.

[Meltman]

Psst, their lawyers aren't the same people that make games and comics and movies.

Legal is pretty damn evil everywhere you go...

Boycotting a product because of what a lawyer that has nothing to do with it does, that's ridiculous.

[Titomancer]

There's a reason there's a movie where Satan is a lawyer.

[T!M]

CoH is quickly becoming dull to me. I cant see myself playing this game for another year.

The first thing I'll do if I dont cancel my account earlier is cancel for Age of Conan. I'll be in the academy by then so I can aford a few other games. I'll also invest in the DC MMO, I'm not going to shrug it off simply based on who's making it. With Cryptic going with Marvel it's blatent their MMO will be exactly like CoH, except in the Marvel Universe. Not to mention on not a Marvel fan...

[The Widowed]

There's a reason there's a movie where Satan is a lawyer.
Hey, now...Daredevil is just as human as you or me....

Oh. You mean The Devil's Advocate. Nevermind. :D

[The Widowed]

Psst, their lawyers aren't the same people that make games and comics and movies.

Legal is pretty damn evil everywhere you go...

Boycotting a product because of what a lawyer that has nothing to do with it does, that's ridiculous.
Um, you don't honestly believe, um, that those lawyers, um, filed a lawsuit and represented Marvel on, um, their own, um, initiative, um, do, um, you? Um, like, "Your Honor, um, Marvel didn't ask us to, um, represent them in this lawsuit, um, but we're going to, um, do it anyway"? O_o

(Um, I'm thinking, um, that a Meltman Week might, um, be in order soon.... >:] )

No Marvel MMOG for me either, thanks.

[Titomancer]

Wids, I think you're reaching on ways to make fun of people. That one didnt even make sense.

And to keep this post vaguely topic related, I'll say that I almost wish they would take a cue from the awsomeness of the Xmen Legends/Marvel ultimate Alliance games and makes an MMO Action RPG. Granted, thats a hugely long game name type thing, but it would nice to not have City of Heroes and City of Marvel. I'd rather be able to play both games without them being the same game, or even the same style. I'd rather like a Legends style game, pick up teams, groups of 4, Raids of 2-4 groups, pick a powerset and create your character, and basically just have a game of total carnage. A lot like guild wars, but cooler.

[The Widowed]

Wids, I think you're reaching on ways to make fun of people. That one didnt even make sense.
Sure it did. You just have to notice patterns in other people, that's all. Kind of like my habit of planting emoticons at the end of each paragraph, but I don't see anyone lampooning me in the future because you can only have so many emotes in a post. :cool:

And to keep this post vaguely topic related, I'll say that I almost wish they would take a cue from the awsomeness of the Xmen Legends/Marvel ultimate Alliance games and makes an MMO Action RPG. Granted, thats a hugely long game name type thing, but it would nice to not have City of Heroes and City of Marvel. I'd rather be able to play both games without them being the same game, or even the same style. I'd rather like a Legends style game, pick up teams, groups of 4, Raids of 2-4 groups, pick a powerset and create your character, and basically just have a game of total carnage. A lot like guild wars, but cooler.
You're proposing two games disguised as one...different playstyles, different executions, but same backgrounds and characters (which are mere cosmetics). Kind of like selecting the different power attack rules in Capcom vs. SNK, but altering an entire game instead of a bunch of Level X Super Hyper Special attacks. :think:

[Titomancer]

You're proposing two games disguised as one...different playstyles, different executions, but same backgrounds and characters (which are mere cosmetics). Kind of like selecting the different power attack rules in Capcom vs. SNK, but altering an entire game instead of a bunch of Level X Super Hyper Special attacks. :think:

What I'm proposing is an expansion on an idea. On a style. More action/adventure oriented (it IS on a console, after all). I don't know, I'm just really hoping its not Cookie Cutter MMO #1, Cookie Cutter MMO #2, or City of Marvel. It would be nice if they used what they already had (the Legends style games work so wonderfully well) and expanded on it. If they used a little imagination and really wanted to me a completely new MMO (This is Statesman, so Im betting against) they would likely be able to get the CoH crowd without loosing anyone from CoH.

More just thinking out loud, as we haven't gotten any new information and no one's really posted a new idea for us to expound upon.

Edit, because I know someone's going to be a chump: I am NOT proposing a simple MMO Port of the Legends game. Just saying let it influence the final product in the hopes of setting itself apart within the Super-MMO genre.

[Lady Wonder]

Well I for one am not going to sit here and speculate about how this whole ordeal is going to play out because it could have good or bad results. I have to admit it makes me a bit nervous for Coh/Cryptic that they have had trouble with marvel in the past and marvel has a reputation for loving to sue everything they can possibly sue. I was excited when I heard this game was coming out, and the table top CoH game. I do plan on playing it but I will not give up CoH. I just hope this does not start some sort of mass unappeal twards CoH because Cryptic is making something new with a big name. Maybe the hardcore CoH lovers will prove to be unbreakable.

My thoughts exactly.. hmm. sigh. oh well. we'll see.

LW

[ThunderMace]

Well, while I like Legends and I'm sure I'll love Ultimate Alliance, the Diablo-Baldurs Gate Viewing perspective bugs me. It's like Freedom Force is an awesome game but what COH does for me with the 3rd or 1st person perspective is make it personal for me. I can pretend to *be* Donner or SuperSolar, wheras I just *play* Wolverine. I like the immersiveness of our MMO.
Now a real-time First Person Superhero MMO? I'd be all over that.

[Titomancer]

Well, like I said, didnt mean a litteral port. Camera would be MMO Camera, but the play style (action/destruction) would be great.

[Plasma Wisp]

The thing with lawyers and the people upstairs is to maintain what is theirs. I mean, it is their means of income. They're just protecting what is theirs.

I'm not being a whipping boy of Marvel, but after having three professors who were lawyers and it's their job

That'd be like if someone made the exact copy of Wids in another game but gave credit to Wids. Wids would want to maintain a sense of ownership and tell the copycat to knock it off.

As far as the Marvel, Cryptic, and Microsoft I'll wait for more than a press conference and internet announcement to grab my attention.

[MajorMarvel]

Now a real-time First Person Superhero MMO? I'd be all over that.

well if you take out the "Superhero" Then that Explains "Huxley" a big FPS MMO with up too 200 player battles and PC interacting with XBOX360 and areas in 2 mile diameters.

[MajorMarvel]

so Jack Emmeret takes it up the butt for over a year from MarvelEntertainment while fighting them and now he's willing to get down on his knees and give..........well you get the idea. Any more and I cant type this

[Seadevil]

so Jack Emmeret takes it up the butt for over a year from MarvelEntertainment while fighting them and now he's willing to get down on his knees and give...

... thanks?

[Darknesse]

When they started suing everybody and anybody for anything they possibly can.

I'm not just talking about CoH - They sent a cease and desist to a Freedom Force website that was offering skins of Marvel characters, for christ's sake.

They're ridiculous.

Wait. They were offering skins of marvel characters? What do you mean? That sounds uncool to me...

[AfterglowNoMore]

Wait. They were offering skins of marvel characters? What do you mean? That sounds uncool to me...
Freedom Force's character creator was based around character created skins. Basically, you took an art program and edited a skin to look how you wanted. Places like Skindex were making and displaying skins of Marvel, DC and other well known character properties. Marvel told them to remove the skins or they were going to sue the site owners.

[ThunderMace]

Wait. They were offering skins of marvel characters? What do you mean? That sounds uncool to me...

all fan-made Darknesse. So no money was made by Freedom Force.

[Yin]

Psst, their lawyers aren't the same people that make games and comics and movies.

Legal is pretty damn evil everywhere you go...

Boycotting a product because of what a lawyer that has nothing to do with it does, that's ridiculous.


No, but their laywers represent Marvel, so, in essence, Marvel is an evil corporation. Point blank. When you start threatening to sue people for creating skins for a game, then you're a little out of hand. There's no need to be that anal rententive.

[Noble]

How come DC isn't that assinine? or is that we just don't hear about it?

[T!M]

Cause DC isn't ran by a bunch of profiteering blottins.

[The Widowed]

...blottins? :eyebrow:

[Morcalivan7]

And I thought it was because DC only has two good characters.

[The Widowed]

Three. Wonder Woman's not bad either. Now if only DC would showcase her as much as they whore out Superman and Batman....

[razoras]

all fan-made Darknesse. So no money was made by Freedom Force.

You speak of the Skindex. http://www.darkjared.addr.com/

[Solario]

Cause DC isn't ran by a bunch of profiteering blottins.

Bravo, your understanding of trademarks and coprights put the rest of us to shame. :sarcasm:

When big companies sue someone over copyright and trademark issues it's not about pumping someone for money, it's about protecting that copyright and trademark so that you don't lose that copyright/trademark. It's to prevent dozens/hundreds/thousands/millions of other people doing the same thing, thereby suffering financially from not protecting themselves. Marvel, DC and hundreds of other companies don't pride themselves on suing people, but because of the legal system it's a necessary evil.

And DC has a lot more financial and legal aid thanks to Warner Brothers, which, I would imagine, would A. speed up the legal process and B. mean that they have a more researched grasp of what they can and can not allow, not to mention the scare tactics of simply having a multibillion dollar corporation backing you.

[T!M]

I'm sure in time you'll get over it...

[Darknesse]

So you guys are saying that it's evil to tell a site that is using your trademarked characters in a game that it could be competing with in the future to stop?

That just sounds... Smart to me. Lord knows that we, from the outside can look at it and say "why not let them use it? It doesn't hurt anyone" but think about it from their perspective.

If you are Marvel, do you REALLY want a precident like that floating around?

Who knows, if they let someone slide with that, then who knows where it ends? Slippery Slopes. The next thing you know, someone makes a movie based on a character made with the skin, instead of the character, and BAM, Marvel has lost a trademark in essence.

I am surprised that The Incredibles got by, frankly. I dare you to tell me that they aren't the Fantastic Four. To remove the Human Torch and add a speedster and pretend it's not a direct rip insults my intelligence.

I mean, how many invisible force field generating comic heroes team with a stretchy hero and a super strong guy?

[razoras]

I think the difference is that some of us draw the line differently, Darknesse. Most folks I know would agree that defending the copyright and trademarks of your company is necessary.

The case of Skindex and other fansites that have made skins or mods for games using Marvel characters? You'll never be able to convince me that sending out legal threats as your first line of communication is the right way to do anything, or that fans making skins of Marvel's characters is a threat to Marvel or could cause any kind of brand confusion.

[Titomancer]

I think the reason marvel is such a stickler about stopping copyright infringement in games is because Marvel actually puts out games. When was the last GOOD dc game? And don't give me the Batman Begins movie game, as thats a movie game. If people start making skins for other games, especially superhero games, Marvel loses potential business (why buy this other game to play Wolverine when I can just get a skin for Freedom Force, which I already have?)

Also, as for threats being the first communication. I think you're blowing that out of proportion. Unless you've actually seen the notice. I would think it would be a very polite, business email asking them to stop posting those skins of copyright infringement. There might have been mention of legal recourse should they not, but thats pretty standard. I dont think it was anywhere near "Stop or we'll sue you, assholes".
Not to mention you're conveniently ignoring the separation of the business end of Marvel from the creative end of marvel. The artists and writers have very little input, if any at all, on the business end. Marvel Corporate is Marvel Corporate, and you cant hold the artists and writers responsible for this. The Company (read: Suits) might be assholes, but you cant blame them. They're sole role in life is to see to it that their company makes the most money it can. It's not evil, its business. Welcome to the real world. Comic industry aside, go to any business and they'll tell you, point blank, its all about money. It's not nice, but its true. DC isnt as high profile about it because its got the WB backing and I'm sure they either bury it, or take care of it before legal matters are even involved (WB being the 800lb gorilla that makes you shit a brick and run away before the lawyers are even called).

[Jade_Dragon]

Personally, I feel DC stood back and watched while Marvel took on the Skindex and Cryptic lawsuits so they could avoid the bad press. Probably the best thing to do, under the circumstances.

Unfortunately, this comes down to the same copyright laws as the people who think it's okay to trade songs freely on the Internet. There are some people who think that's "not hurting anyone", and there are those pointing out that yes, it does take money out of the hands of the artists. It takes a lot more money out of the hands of the corporations, sure, but it's either ride the gravy train or you don't get money at all.

Fan works will always walk the grey area between copyright violation and fair use. You can either accept that, and try and be responsible with them, or you can stick your head in the sand and hope the problem goes away. Which is what both sides seem to be trying to do.

[Yin]

DC has that one game coming out. Justice League or something like that. Haven't heard about it in ages, but I'm so wrapped up in getting Marvel Ultimate Alliance I'll forget about it.

[Seadevil]

DC has that one game coming out. Justice League or something like that. Haven't heard about it in ages, but I'm so wrapped up in getting Marvel Ultimate Alliance I'll forget about it.

Justice League Heroes. It's coming out in November... I think.

But, Ultimate Alliance looks a hell of a lot better.

[Yin]

Justice League Heroes. It's coming out in November... I think.

But, Ultimate Alliance looks a hell of a lot better.

It's going to blow JLH out of the water. There's no way I think it can compete with it. I think if DC took the time to make a decent game they might be successful. I'll purchase it probably, but wait until it's marked down, or if someone traded it in.

[MajorMarvel]

Asked if the Marvel MMO will be a similar flavor to City of Heroes and City of Villains, Emmert said that the assumption that the game will be just like CoH with a Marvel overlay isn’t quite true.

“With City of Heroes, we really had a very different goal in mind than we do with this particular game,” Emmert said. “Certainly, with the technology, we’re doing the next rev on it. The fact that all of our servers were up and running – we didn’t have queues, we didn’t have crashes – those are the important things. That experience will be the same. But in terms of what the player does, the sky’s the limit, and we’re not thinking inside of any box right now. We’re definitely going to expand gameplay and change it and make this game its own.”


SO from what this told me, Jack is basically pissing on the first child and Glorifing the second. Whats the term? "Everybody Loves Raymand"?
I'm now actually angry at this concept. At first I was just "meh. it'll suck" now I'm actually angry that Jack Emmert, who defended us, who gave us love, is now basically saying "Oh piss on the other one."

[Titomancer]

Are you honestly surprised? Everyone hated him and bashed him to the point where he backed out and gave it to Posi. I dont blame him for not caring much about CoH anymore. He took his hand out cause he got bit.

[Jade_Dragon]

You've already seen my take on it. He's either going to try and come up with something closer to his original concept, just to see if he can do it, or he's just going to throw every stupid gimmick at the players, giving them everything they want, so when the game tanks, he can say "I told you so".

Of course, I hope that's not what's going on. However, I can't really see how anyone could hire Jack and NOT expect the game to be like CoH. He's already come up against those issues, I think it will be hard for him to come up with a new solution instead of just going with the old one.

[razoras]

He's a businessman, and in that interview he's speaking empty businessman PR speak.

How do you translate that into "pissing on CoH" exactly? That is beyond my comprehension.

I think it's incredibly insane how everyone reads personal vendetta into business decisions. Jeb left development after CoV was completed, and the speculation that it was personal ran rampant. Jack Emmert, pretty much the main PR guy at Cryptic, moves on to hustle for the new project for the company and now he's "pissing on" our game.

[Titomancer]

I have high hopes. Jack has some interesting ideas, provided Marvel can keep a leash on him and prevent his own personal desires out of it (IE, I HATE LOOOOOT RAAAWWRRR!!!!)

Marvel, in my opinion, wont allow a bad product out the door. They've got a reputation nowadays for good video games. I dont think they'd let this one tarnish it. Keep in mind, this isnt just Jack making a game in his basement, he's got Marvel who are going to be watching him like a hawk.

[MajorMarvel]

You've already seen my take on it. He's either going to try and come up with something closer to his original concept, just to see if he can do it, or he's just going to throw every stupid gimmick at the players, giving them everything they want, so when the game tanks, he can say "I told you so".

And Marvel would sit there and enjoy it because they dont give a rats ass about Videogames. Sure they did good with Ultimate Spidey and the X-Men legends, but lets not forget Fantastic Four, Incredible Hulk(Movie game), X-Men the movie game, and more

yeah, When it comes to games, unless it is made by Raven or Treyarch, I gotta say "No way"

and Positron was always a better guy. Statesman is too lame I mean, gotta save his butt every single time while Posi sits there in his 2.0 armor. Posi is the Fonzie of COH.

[Masked Revenger]

He's a businessman, and in that interview he's speaking empty businessman PR speak.

How do you translate that into "pissing on CoH" exactly? That is beyond my comprehension.

I think it's incredibly insane how everyone reads personal vendetta into business decisions. Jeb left development after CoV was completed, and the speculation that it was personal ran rampant. Jack Emmert, pretty much the main PR guy at Cryptic, moves on to hustle for the new project for the company and now he's "pissing on" our game.

QFT

Chris

[T!M]

So....Will we see Statesman in Civil War? ;)

[MajorMarvel]

So....Will we see Statesman in Civil War? ;)

if we do, I want to see Clor kill him like a dog :P

[UnSub]

He's a businessman, and in that interview he's speaking empty businessman PR speak.

How do you translate that into "pissing on CoH" exactly? That is beyond my comprehension.

I think it's incredibly insane how everyone reads personal vendetta into business decisions. Jeb left development after CoV was completed, and the speculation that it was personal ran rampant. Jack Emmert, pretty much the main PR guy at Cryptic, moves on to hustle for the new project for the company and now he's "pissing on" our game.

The thing is this probably didn't come down to Statesman making the call. It would have been Michael Lewis, president and money man of Cryptic. And Statesman isn't going to be the lead dev on this game - that's one of the positions Cryptic was seeking to fill on their site. Statesman is going to remain Creative Director over both universes, with Positron as lead dev in CoH/V and someone else as lead dev for the MUO.

Now, no-one has ever publicly commented on Zeb's leaving, but I think it came down to this: he got offered the lead dev position on the Stargate MMOG where he could create the game he wanted to. That's a mighty big motivator to shift. He might have grated under Statesman / Positron, but he may have also just hated the coffee in the office - it's too hard to say unless you've got a source.

I don't get the Statesman hate. Without Statesman, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO COH. Dakan, the original lead dev, has acknowledged that CoH was going in circles when he was in charge. Statesman stepped up, made some hard changes and got the best MMOG I've ever played released. His communication skills may need some work and he has learned through bitter, bitter experience not to announce anything until it's in the can, but he did a fantastic job in getting CoH/V to where it is today. By comparison, Positron (who's also been at Cryptic a long time and part of everything that Statesman takes the flak for) gets to step into a well-defined role and announce candy for everyone. Statesman doesn't get half the props he deserves and I'm amazed at times he hasn't perma-banned some players for the comments they've made about him.

Getting the Marvel MMOG is a smart business move. Cryptic, an independent studio in a fickle market, gets another big title and less risk that a competitor will steal from their customer base with a superhero MMOG. CoH/V is a long way from dead, especially with NO info existing about MUO other that it'll be New York-based. I do think we'll see MUO out in time for Christmas 2007, but it's also going to be Xbox360 focused. It's not going to be a reskinned CoH/V simply because it won't fit the console for gameplay- at closest, it will be a heavily tweaked CoH/V-style game, but more likely it'll have markedly different in-game systems.

And finally, MMOGs are notoriously hard to kill. UO is coming up on 10 years since release (if it hasn't already surpassed that mark). Anarchy Online is now free to play. Hell, Shadowbane and Meridian 59 have been resurrected from the dead. CoH/V isn't going to collapse for having the MUO as a competitor. So please all, dial back on the DOOOOOM.

[Yin]

Are you honestly surprised? Everyone hated him and bashed him to the point where he backed out and gave it to Posi. I dont blame him for not caring much about CoH anymore. He took his hand out cause he got bit.

Which is a blessing in disguise.

The game seems to be doing a lot better since Posi took over his position. A helluva lot better.

[ELECTRO]

Check this out - Cryptic is Making the Marvel MMO - so it is guaranteed to Rock :look: There's even a Trailer

http://crypticstudios.com/news.php#35





.

[razoras]

Oh yeah, we've had a huge thread about it already. I imagine this post will get merged into the big one. :)

[Nerfed]

Check this out - Cryptic is Making the Marvel MMO - so it is guaranteed to Rock :look:

If by "Rock" you mean "end up being City of Heroes with trademark characters in place of signature heroes and archvillains," then yah... probably.

The thing is, they're going to screw it up. There's no way around it. To make it work as a balanced MMO, players will end up with a level up process similar to COH where we have limited power selections. With Jack Emmert in charge, it has to be this way because they already tried COH with a more freeform power selection process... which leads large numbers of the unbalanced pseudo AT everyone is so fond of calling the "Flying Tank Mage."

You take that away, and you lose the diversity of existing Marvel characters. I mean, not really... Marvel characters will bend the rules to have what powers they need to translate well into the gaming environment. Iron Man will be the epitome of flying tank mage, Punisher will be a martial arts blaster, and Hulk will have to be the equivalent of a giant monster.

But player heroes. They will be weak and non-super by comparison. Like in City of, they will have unusual powers... but those powers will always be only as good as thugs of the same level with a baseball bat or a gun... and there will always be a never-ending stream of streeth thugs and villainous organization henchmen from level 1 all the way up to level 50 (or whatever they cap it at) that will be able to shoot or club your "invulnerable tanker" into unconsciousness... just like when the Thing gets knocked out by hoards of Hydra soldiers or a lucky group of muggers that didn't recognize him in his trenchcoat.

I mean, its one thing to look at a generic world like COH is and just accept that these are the limitations of "super power" in that world. However, things work differently in the Marvel Comics universe. Often, the hero is above the nuisance of henchman and has to tolerate them to get to the real enemy... or the threat isn't from a powerful enemy at all, but a bad guy that could be knocked out with the flick of a super strong finger if he can thwart the villain's doomsday plot first and manage to catch the bad guy.

I can hardly wait to solo my way through the Puppet Master's traps and controlled minions only to be bitch-slapped left and right by the Puppet Master himself, an elite boss with controller-type power. That will be fun. (Sure, I'm just making up examples, but that's how it'd end up if Puppet Master were to appear in the Marvel MMO.) Every named villain will be the equivalent of a boss, elite boss, or archvillain... meanwhile player heroes will end up with their power level balanced similarly to COH.

Why does this suck? Because COH was "balanced" on the 3 minion principle and bosses (and higher) should generally require a team effort to defeat. You know, like when Spider-man fought his way through Kingpin's minions only to teleport to the hospitol and summon Daredevil, Punisher, and Moon Knight to go back in and take down Kingpin himself. Or when Captain America fights through countless soldiers with guns without taking a hit only to come up against the Red Skull and realize he's outclassed and needs either Thor to tank him or Scarlet Witch to "mez" him so Cap could kick the snot of his favorite AV.

No. Just no. I have absolutely zero confidence whatsoever in this game to be remotely interesting... especially because Jack Emmert is involved with it! In fact, I have more confidence that the middle east situation can resolve itself peacefully and everyone gets along all hunky dory with Israel than I have in Jack's ability to deliver a Marvel MMO that captures the spirit of the comics... the only thing that the game will capture is a boatload of trademarked names and the money of thousands of Marvel fanboys.

Not my money, though.

[Titomancer]

You cant have a video game that captures the spirit of comics books because you're having to fit it within the confines of a game engine. If you want a comic book experience, pen and paper roleplay (or free-form roleplay) are the closest things you'll get. As for the Flying Tank Mage of unbalancedness. Thor and Ironman. Let em make tank mages for all I care.

[Nerfed]

As for the Flying Tank Mage of unbalancedness. Thor and Ironman. Let em make tank mages for all I care.
See, I don't see why not that kind of character, either... its not that it removes challenge from the game, its that it forces the developers to find a way to challenge them. However, the developers will be lazy and we'll end up with squishie mages and solid melees, just like every other MMO.

That's what I mean by this game will fail to capture the spirit of the comics --its just going to be a bunch of recognizable names draped over the same old same old in MMO standards. Super heroes, that's a joke. Everyone is a cleric, fighter, wizard, or rogue... period.

But that's not how super hero teams usually end up. For the most part, there's very rarely a healer type in comic book super teams. Most of a team possesses a combination of blaster and melee related powers. Then, to make things a little interesting, you have a couple "weak links" in terms of melee power that end up holding their own because their controller-type powers kick butt.

How often do you see the Justice League or the Avengers relying on their healers to pull them through a fight? And do their "tankers" hold aggro so the scrappers and blasters can finish the baddies off? No, they soak up the damage and give it back in spades.

[Noble]

That is true. How many healer characters are there in either the DC or marvel Universes?

[Titomancer]

ARG!!! It ate my post!!!!

Basically, melty and I had a talk about this.
You make some choices at character creation.
You pick your primary (Melee, Ranged, or Support) and your secondary (melee, ranged, or support) and then you pick the power of each (martial arts, super strength, fire, ice, etc.) And as you use your powers (use-based xp, not kill-based) you earn expansion slots for your powers, where you can ad a new use to it.
You can even tack a tertiary slot on there for the non-primary stuff that helps round out a hero (Spidey's wallcrawling for instance)

Thor
Primary: melee (hammer) expansion-Flight, Throw
Secondary: ranged (lightning)

Spiderman
Primary: melee (martial arts multistyle)
secondary: ranged (Webs) expansion-Web ball, web net, web trap, web swing

[Noble]

If by "Rock" you mean "end up being City of Heroes with trademark characters in place of signature heroes and archvillains," then yah... probably.

The thing is, they're going to screw it up. There's no way around it. To make it work as a balanced MMO, players will end up with a level up process similar to COH where we have limited power selections. With Jack Emmert in charge, it has to be this way because they already tried COH with a more freeform power selection process... which leads large numbers of the unbalanced pseudo AT everyone is so fond of calling the "Flying Tank Mage."

You take that away, and you lose the diversity of existing Marvel characters. I mean, not really... Marvel characters will bend the rules to have what powers they need to translate well into the gaming environment. Iron Man will be the epitome of flying tank mage, Punisher will be a martial arts blaster, and Hulk will have to be the equivalent of a giant monster.

But player heroes. They will be weak and non-super by comparison. Like in City of, they will have unusual powers... but those powers will always be only as good as thugs of the same level with a baseball bat or a gun... and there will always be a never-ending stream of streeth thugs and villainous organization henchmen from level 1 all the way up to level 50 (or whatever they cap it at) that will be able to shoot or club your "invulnerable tanker" into unconsciousness... just like when the Thing gets knocked out by hoards of Hydra soldiers or a lucky group of muggers that didn't recognize him in his trenchcoat.

I mean, its one thing to look at a generic world like COH is and just accept that these are the limitations of "super power" in that world. However, things work differently in the Marvel Comics universe. Often, the hero is above the nuisance of henchman and has to tolerate them to get to the real enemy... or the threat isn't from a powerful enemy at all, but a bad guy that could be knocked out with the flick of a super strong finger if he can thwart the villain's doomsday plot first and manage to catch the bad guy.

I can hardly wait to solo my way through the Puppet Master's traps and controlled minions only to be bitch-slapped left and right by the Puppet Master himself, an elite boss with controller-type power. That will be fun. (Sure, I'm just making up examples, but that's how it'd end up if Puppet Master were to appear in the Marvel MMO.) Every named villain will be the equivalent of a boss, elite boss, or archvillain... meanwhile player heroes will end up with their power level balanced similarly to COH.

Why does this suck? Because COH was "balanced" on the 3 minion principle and bosses (and higher) should generally require a team effort to defeat. You know, like when Spider-man fought his way through Kingpin's minions only to teleport to the hospitol and summon Daredevil, Punisher, and Moon Knight to go back in and take down Kingpin himself. Or when Captain America fights through countless soldiers with guns without taking a hit only to come up against the Red Skull and realize he's outclassed and needs either Thor to tank him or Scarlet Witch to "mez" him so Cap could kick the snot of his favorite AV.

No. Just no. I have absolutely zero confidence whatsoever in this game to be remotely interesting... especially because Jack Emmert is involved with it! In fact, I have more confidence that the middle east situation can resolve itself peacefully and everyone gets along all hunky dory with Israel than I have in Jack's ability to deliver a Marvel MMO that captures the spirit of the comics... the only thing that the game will capture is a boatload of trademarked names and the money of thousands of Marvel fanboys.

Not my money, though.

well said. you just convinced me to be very skeptical about this game until I see some serious reviews.

[Nerfed]

Yeah, don't anyone get me wrong on this... I'm not outright against the idea of another super hero MMO and I'm not anti-Marvel no matter how much I hate some of the stuff they're doing in the comics lately.

I am just saying that there is nothing to be excited about yet. Using COH as a model and its track record to predict what the Marvel MMO will be is perfectly fair considering Emmert's involvement... and that game just doesn't support the feel of Marvel Comics. You can fill it full of trademark named heroes and villains, set it in New York City (huge undertaking, that), and all sorts of other window dressing...

...that won't really make it feel like you're a part of the Marvel Comics world. It'll end up feeling like you're an alternate reality traveller stepped in from a low-powered hero dimension and everything you do is second best compared to the exploits of the "real deal" heroes of Marvel Comics.

I want more. In a fantasy world type MMO like Everquest and World of Warcraft, it makes perfect sense to have balanced parties of adventurers. Each class is intended to fill a role specialized role and you build a party to go out and survive your endeavors to accumulate wealth and fame. Super heroes, while often part of teams, are more often than not solo (or duo) acts. They should fare well against typical bad guys and their own rogues gallery fairly well. (Hell, Spider-man got so good at taking out his foes that they started teaming up in groups to take him down!) Super heroes team up for monstrously powerful foes, super villain teams, and fighting the armies of villainous organizations.

Because the MMO environment is team oriented, they force teaming down your throat by making the heroes so weak (or NPCs so powerful) that you have to team up to survive against a crowd of minions. But Jack says he reads a couple hundred dollars worth of comic books a month, so he should have a pretty good grasp on how heroes work, right? So why have we gone through 2 years of nerf after nerf? Because he (and the rest of them) don't really know how to achieve their artificial balance... their balance vision where each AT contributes equally to a team as the rest and making challenges so tough that you need a good team to survive.

Except that his balance is still flawed because City of revolves around damage done to defeat foes and achieve XP. Thus, scrappers are "intentionally" balanced out of balance. Why can't a solo hero of any AT be tweaked to perform individually as well as a scrapper? Because people won't team up at all? I don't believe that because people of all ATs teamed up all along from the game's release all the way up to present. The constant nerfs and the heavy-handed application of Enhancement Diversification just made it more necessary than ever to team up.

I too will have to see some reviews (and they'd better be damned good ones) before I can be even remotely excited about the Marvel MMO. Maybe if they had someone with fresh ideas come in... sure, but Jack Emmert is the complete oppopsite of "fresh ideas." In my opinion, COH/COV were being slowly driven into the ground under his leadership... even after he's gone, good things coming to the game under Positron are still tainted by Jack's "vision."

That's the long of it... the short telling can easily be summed up in a quote from my favorite sig ever over on the official forums:

"It was luck. An accident. City of Heroes was great despite Jack's vision of gameplay, not because of it."
-FlyingCodeMonkey

Sounds like a very wise FlyingCodeMonkey, indeed.

[Emerald Sky]

Some people just expect perfection and anything less will be a disappointment. Unfortunately, games can't be perfect, so prepare yourself to be disappointed.

[Yin]

Yea. There's only so much that can be done to an MMO.

And either way, people are going to be disappointed and complain. No one ever wins. Just like that saying, "Damn if you do, damn if you don't."

[Nerfed]

I don't expect perfection... but I do expect more than half-assed efforts in hope of achieving some imaginary "balance" that will never come.

[Emerald Sky]

I don't expect perfection... but I do expect more than half-assed efforts in hope of achieving some imaginary "balance" that will never come.

Then you might as well give up MMO's in general because they're all like that. This genre isn't for everyone.

[Yin]

Cryptic tried "the other way", and it delayed them big time. We still might be waiting for the game until this day if they stuck with the old system (which seemed to good to be true while we were all waiting for it).

Just don't think because it's Marvel they're going to come out with something different and superb. You can only do so much with what you got. I personally think it's going to run the exact same way as CoH, only we'll see signature characters throughout the city, and ATs/Origins might be called something else.

[Remianen]

First:

I don't get the Statesman hate. Without Statesman, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO COH. Dakan, the original lead dev, has acknowledged that CoH was going in circles when he was in charge. Statesman stepped up, made some hard changes and got the best MMOG I've ever played released. His communication skills may need some work and he has learned through bitter, bitter experience not to announce anything until it's in the can, but he did a fantastic job in getting CoH/V to where it is today. By comparison, Positron (who's also been at Cryptic a long time and part of everything that Statesman takes the flak for) gets to step into a well-defined role and announce candy for everyone. Statesman doesn't get half the props he deserves and I'm amazed at times he hasn't perma-banned some players for the comments they've made about him.

It's simple, really. Jack Emmert, through his actions, has proven to be a very linear and limited thinker. I would think after the first time you promise something and have it not be possible or doable in the way you promised it, you'd back off and not make those promises anymore. The issue is, he's a manager type, who probably isn't very well-versed in how things work on the frontlines. This is why Matt is better than he is (Castle too). I dislike Statesman because I dislike managers with no long-term vision. I also dislike game developers who foster an adversarial relationship with their playerbases. While he was never as bad as say SWG's dev team, it still doesn't mean he gets a free pass because he got the game out the door. It's funny how Castle and Positron can engage in constructive communication with the playerbase while Jack usually caused more strife than anything else by his posts. But I'm sure that was the players' faults.

And finally, MMOGs are notoriously hard to kill. UO is coming up on 10 years since release (if it hasn't already surpassed that mark). Anarchy Online is now free to play. Hell, Shadowbane and Meridian 59 have been resurrected from the dead. CoH/V isn't going to collapse for having the MUO as a competitor. So please all, dial back on the DOOOOOM.

Umm, MMOs are hard to kill? Are you absolutely sure about that? Your examples are extremely flawed. Shadowbane never died. Meridian 59 is essentially a LAN game now. I can roll off the names of several MMOs that have died over the last 10 years, without ever even mentioning the ones that were stillborn. Also, what exactly do you mean by an MMO being killed? There are hundreds of MMOs that don't even fit the term 'niche' game, judging by their subscriber bases so if you count those as the 'hard to kill' examples, yeah you'd be right. I'm sure that in some people's eyes, any game that allows multiple people to play at the same time is an MMOG but I don't think too many developers (or, more importantly, the people financing those developers) would agree with that definition. You have to remember that the impetus for the MMO boom wasn't EVE Online. It was the $1.5 million a month in pure profit generated by EverQuest (just from subscriptions) in its heyday (2000) and easily exceeded nowadays by Blizzard's baby. Does a game have to go the route of AC2 for you to consider it dead?

I can understand people loving Jack Emmert and thinking he can do no wrong (or, if he does do wrong, it's someone else's fault). There are people who feel the same way about Brad McQuaid, (who by the way, has a far more impressive resume that Jack does, no offense) though I disagree on both points. Raph Koster has gotten MMOs out the door but is he infallible too? Richard Garriott proved that these games can actually make money, do you ignore all the idealistic tripe he incorporated into his game design(s)?

Nerfed, while I agree with your obvious level of frustration, there's one thing you're probably totally wrong on:

Because people won't team up at all? I don't believe that because people of all ATs teamed up all along from the game's release all the way up to present.

This is probably THE biggest issue in MMO development today. The market has spoken. No one can deny that part of WoW's overwhelming success is that every class can solo their way to max level. This makes them appeal to people of pretty much ALL backgrounds. NO ONE, if given the choice, is going to subject themselves to the timesinks inherent to grouping (AFKs, LFG time, moronic behavior, widely differing playstyles and goals, and the list goes on and on). The MMO playerbase as a whole (in Western civilizations) has matured to the point where only a relatively small percentage of people can still play 4-6 hrs a day, as was the case during EverQuest's peak. Therefore, people are looking for a way to advance and progress in smaller blocks of time. This isn't really conducive to the basic group mechanics of MMOs today. If you have an hour available to play, do you want to spend 15 mins of it (or more) trying to find or put together a group?

But by the same token, those MMOs with universal soloability find that grouping happens far less than in other games and then, only in situations where soloing isn't really possible. This has been the case since EQ1, really. How many Necros and Druids (and later, Bards and Wizards) spent hours looking for groups and not actually gaining xp? The same thing can be seen in EQ2 (post-LU13), AO (from LAUNCH, as buggy as that was), DAoC, AC (I'm told), Earth & Beyond, and on and on. It's also a developing issue for games coming out now like Vanguard and Age of Conan and even LOTR Online. It almost KILLED DDO and definitely led to its extremely disappointing launch. Making a game group-centric is fine but excluding people who don't have the playtime required TO group is financial suicide.

Seriously, look one major thing you need to have in place for a successful group oriented game and see if the developers can actually control it:

-Critical mass during ALL play periods and across ALL level ranges and classes/roles (without this, you wind up with barely functional groups without roles they may want filled. While "unconventional" groups can be fun, they aren't usually the preferred option. OR, you wind up with people who want/need to solo because they play during "off-peak" or "weird" hours).

In CoH/V, considering the fact that there is no "high end game" which is usually where socialization's benefits become most obvious, making every AT as soloable as the scrapper would lead to the game losing whatever socialization it has now. Potentially, at least. There are many people who only group when they have to or when it's absolutely the only way to attain whatever they're after. Otherwise, they solo or stick to grouping with a small subset of friends (whether RL or ingame), which doesn't fit the concept of 'grouping' in an MMO sense, from the development point of view. They want you meeting new people, expanding your social network, which (in theory) creates an attachment to the game and keeps you playing longer, even through upheaval (this was one thing that helped EQ develop its 'EverCrack' moniker). That doesn't happen if you're only playing with the same handful of people all the time.

Anyway, while I personally like group-centric games, I also have to admit that I'm not starved for playtime. So my biases reflect that. I'm probably one of the only people who will admit to loving EQ's old "forced grouping" model. But sadly, that wouldn't fly in today's MMO climate. But by the same token, a fully open and soloable model has to have checks in place (like WoW does with instances and high end raids) to make it doable as well.