Arena Ethics

[MaligneFamily]

Its come up very heatedly while on game of whether you must disclose information about your character before and after the fight, therefore revealing what his strategy is and what he can do, leading to somebody stocking up on the correct insp. before battle.

Now three basic ethical dillemas should be brought up (and that came up easily in my mind) with present PvP, should be discussed and debated:

1. Should the person describe how he has powers slotted, and with which type of enhancements? This of course pertaining to Non-Anonymous dueling.

2. Should someone then blame/accuse the prospective of unfair advantage therefore, the person has no skill?

3. Should someone blame the other party for using/exploiting a special skill that they have?


Now to put into a more story based ethical dillema, I made a slight comment about wanting a challenge in PvP, a casual one at that on our Global channel. It was nothing of a serious note just the topic of conversation at that moment was PvP so I made a little chirp of wanting a challenge, even though I was presently in a mission. I am quickly responded with a slight interest which grows as time without me responding goes on. I proceed to tell them my lvl (49), my AT (Def.), my sets (Rad/Rad). They proceed to tell me how their scrappers will beat me to a pulp, seeing as I am a defender. I take heed to that seeing as I have been beaten multiple times by numerous people. After a few minutes of their taunting I take their challenge (albeit with only 5 purp insp.'s). Oh and befrore they tell me no Fly and I said no because for obvious reasons, a Defender needs tactical space (not to mention there are various ways of defeating a flyer). They agree and the battle begins, without heed nor mention of our lvl diferention of 7 lvls. Yet a defender is a mainly support unit, so I think they were confident enough to beat me one on one. I proceed into battle and see that due the nature of Dark Armou/Dark Melee, It's a game of holding/debuffing. Many times this dark scrapper had me almost finished and the battle continued. What I had as the only aid for me against such an AT was Radiation infection, a very good debuffing power. Not a single hit was performed on me when it went off. Yet the other guy played quite well and knew to hold me when possible. And in doing so scored 2 KOs to my 5-7 KOs on him (cant remember). I saay good game, he asks my Enhancements and I readily tell him that there are HO's in RI, in fact 5 out of 6 are HO's, and that I have none anywhere else. He then decides to taunt me to a greater degree, saying how I have no skill at all, that it was all in the HO's (this of course being the first time I meet such a fellow). I reply, he didn't ask, and he replies it isn't standard regulation (as he had tried to explain with the fly incident before). I tell him I have nothing in the build that would very likely beat him, yet he goes on to say I have absolutely no skill, angering me greatly. I may or may not have skill, but I do have decency and rudeness to whatever situation doesn't play well in my book. I then remind him of his kills on me, falling on death ears. He then calls a friend of his who is a very powerful chap indeed ;) Who proceeds to duel with me. It's no competition at all, yet I don't blame him for beating me, nor did I put my lvl discrepency out there. I tell him "GG" and that I hope one day to be a good match for him.

So now I want to settle this once and for all. Should one not always assume he uses their power to beat an opponent to the best of their ability? Therefore on of over lvl 47 should be asssumed to have some partial knowledge or experience with HO's, and if not, then they are not. Is the use of important and critical powers therefore illegal seeing as they give unfair advantages? Then goodbye Nova, SR, MoG, RI, Blackstar.... I think that was preposterous. Therefore I think we should maybe establish some type of ethics thread so to the very least we can refer to it in-game and that we have an assumption to which we can base our assumptions upon.

[Jade_Dragon]

Considering that there is a current debate going on about the effectiveness of HO's, I think it would have been the polite thing to do to mention that you had them. Then if you did, and he still ragged on you about having no skill, you can just consider him childish and ignore him. You obviously didn't mean to mislead him, but the use of HO's was a significant factor.

I don't think you need to outline every one of your powers, though, and your strategies with them. Assuming that anyone can look at your ID screen, that information should be available.

Ethics is about treating people fairly. I kind of doubt that your opponent was treating you fairly, as he probably wouldn't have questioned your "skill" had he beaten you, as he was expecting. (Although he might) In fact, if he were truly making the point that the fight was imbalanced, he would have been proud of the 2 kills he did make. All in all, I'd say that he gave you the challenge that you were looking for. It's unfortunate that he didn't see it that way.

[Akamaz]

well, usually the ethics of pvp as I see it is this.

stick by the match rules on powers and such.
If you win, you win, if you lose you lose, be gracious about it. cause no one wants to play with a whiny @$#%$#

you shouldn't need to tell other folks your powers or how they are slotted, because why give them an advantage?

does it make sense for the controller to say, "hey everyone i'm gonna go duel, make sure to stock up on break frees or i'll have a chance of winning!?"

now on the other hand, i myself dislike the folks who are convinced they're the goddesses gift to PvP, you know what i mean, the ones where if they win they have proven their "Mad Skillz" but if you win you must be cheating, "OMG leik j00 r using teh hami-o's j00 are teh gheyzorz and leik man pron no skillz biotch!"

god those folks tick me off...

the end


but i do agree with Jade, my crowning acheivement in pvp was stunning 2 inv tankers who had about 9 levels on me. and that's just stunning them, when they got unstunned, i was their punching bag the rest of the fight, but i still loved watching them stagger around...

[vyxzuw]

Interesting story.

I guess you felt that including the boasting you did before my challenging you would have caused problems with your verdict you want others to have. (Boasting such as being able to take down tanks. Boasting, in the nature of saying: I AM 1337!)

Interesting also, how you place comments from one, to be from all. I did not comment on your using Fly. (However, your comments about not having to fight honorably, was interesting. Again, another reason I challenged you.)

There was a back and forth, between you and Darknesse, mostly. (With others, including me, chiming in. On both sides.) Some of this, was you saying how Darknesse wouldn't be able to beat you. (Again, like I said, boasting.)

So, I decided to challenge you. With my lvl 44 DA scrapper. (You were on a mission and 48 at the time...but wanted to level to 49...) I also commented on how Petrifying Gaze would be a problem for you, which you blew off.

Oddly enough, I got the first kill. (By using Petifying Gaze, and you commenting on how you forgot your mez protection...)

Also note: I used NO inspires the entire match. Even though I could have used ACC inspires to overcome the debuff. I felt it would be unfair. (Which also should have been stated beforehand whether they should be used, but no matter.)

Having 5 (or 6) Debuffs in RI will give you a debuff (and thus an equivelant defense) similar to SR scrappers. RI is AUTO hit. With SOs, it is a powerful power. However, with Hammy-Os, it's overpowered. If you want an example of what 5 or 6 Hammy-Os will do in one power, see the Hammy-O thread. Having Hammy-Os, is different than using them to make one power more powerful than the devs intentioned. Just like Perma-Elude was never intentioned. (There is a thread on the official boards on Hammy-Os.)

With Hammy-Os, for instance, you can give yourself a ACC bonus so high, that you can hit SR scrappers WITH Elude.

That's why I was upset. Would you not be upset from someone who uses a power in a way, that the devs have created a thread on, because it may be exploitive?

Is the use of important and critical powers therefore illegal seeing as they give unfair advantages? Then goodbye Nova, SR, MoG, RI, Blackstar.... I think that was preposterous.

You list MoG. A good example. MoG is a powerful power. PERMA-MOG is exploitive. It's not meant to run that way, even though the game allows it.
***
Numbers for RI:

RI has a 30% Acc debuff. With 6 SOs, that would bring it to 90%. However, this isn't defense, it's an Acc debuff.

So, with a base 75% chance to hit another player. 75*(1-.9)=7.5%

However, here's the problem with Acc debuffs...Most people use Acc buffs. (While PvEs don't usually.)

So, with 1 Acc SO: 75*(1+.33-.9)=32.25% (You can get enough Defense in the power pool to bring that down to 5%.)

Now, with Hammy-Os: A hammy-O has a 50% buff to two powers. (or 33% to three...) (Assuming 1 SO ACC for the opponent.)

With 5: 75*(1+.33-(.3(1+(5*.5))))=21% (Since, you seemed to only be using Hover, you probably have 6 Hammy-Os. Strange that you don't know if you have 5 or 6...)

With 6: 75*(1+.33-(.3(1+(6*.5))))=9.75% (With Hover, that's 4.75%)

So, with RI and one pool power, you bring me down to the equivalent of fighting a SR with Elude. Why Elude, because you have a AoE defense equivelent of 90.25%. (From 100% to 9.75%)

A Defender achieving an equivalent SR defense of Perma-Elude, and you see no problem with that? (With ONE Power) Also, remember that RI is auto-hit.

Now, against Dark. I'm assuming that he has at least one SO. (Or FA or something to bring him up to the same as the SO.)

He, however, has something I do not. Buildup. (And Invincibility.)

You have a Debuff of 120%. He subtracts 33% with the SO, and more with Build Up and Invincibility...as well as having a Acc bonus from Broadsword.

So, he probably had a to hit closer to if you had only SOs, instead of Hammy-Os.
***
When I said that you couldn't beat us, that's from a stance of normal powers. (6 Slotting Hammy-Os, or pumping swarms of inspires, or perma-whatever, is not.)

You made a build that could go beyond that. However, that build is the equivalent of someone soloing an AV. It's not done through skill, it's done through exploiting.

[MaligneFamily]

IN RESPONSE TO ETHICS
Aye, sometimes I do my best to accomodate other, less PvP oriented ATs, for instance one of my most memorable fights was playing with primaries off against a bubbler friend of mine (Powerhelm to those who know him), who some say(dutifully) is broken. We acted as two not so powerful blasters yet no healing and no debuff provided an equal playing feild. We were in compliance and agreed that it was unfair and that was that.

Though if someone wants a challenge I wont sit and run in invis the whole time. If I have to get whipped i get whipped. :chuckle:

ALSO let's keep personal qualms to a min.

IN RESPONSE TO vyxzuw
(Boasting such as being able to take down tanks. Boasting, in the nature of saying: I AM 1337!)


I'd like to respond to this by saying I never boasted in that manner. I have never used numbers or the like to speak. I also am a proud guy. I love my character, so having confidence was allowed not in the essence, I may have had an upburst of confidence from a compliment done by a fellow SG member.

Also I've been training with many types, I have found my strengths and weaknesses and died many times. In fact the very battle before that was a way to better my tank fighting and I dutifully lost.

Let me also note that enhancements, perma's, and pumped up powers are perfectly acceptable to use in a duel. They are rewards/abilities that the game provides. Point and simple. I don't use my char to PL other chars so my exploitation for exp or inf. is nonexsistant, seeing as there's nothing to exploit in PvP other than increased ability and new ways to get out of tough situations. When I go against a rad, I pack three types of insp's, blue,purple, and yellow. You knew who you were going against. Are yeh gonna yell at Poison and Xan and Krypto for having ridiculously powerful abilities, I don't think so.

[vyxzuw]

I'd like to respond to this by saying I never boasted in that manner.

Not using numbers, does not mean you weren't boasting in that manner. (Using proper English, but acting the same way, is irrelevant.)

Let me also note that enhancements, perma's, and pumped up powers are perfectly acceptable to use in a duel. They are rewards/abilities that the game provides. Point and simple.

Actually, if the Devs are looking at those as being possibly exploitive, then they may change them. Thus, the game, in their opinion SHOULDN'T provide them. Thus, they aren't acceptable. (Of course, you can argue that they are allowed currently, however, since the devs are looking at them, you cannot argue that they MAY be considered exploitive, and thus a special case.) So, if your opponent aggrees that they aren't exploitive, then feel free to use them, however, if you disaggree, then don't. Plain and simple.

I don't use my char to PL other chars so my exploitation for exp or inf. is nonexsistant, seeing as there's nothing to exploit in PvP other than increased ability and new ways to get out of tough situations.

PvP is made out of people! PEOPLE!!!!!

You are exploiting people for your own amusement, worse, IMO then exploiting the game. If someone gets 50 in a week, how does that affect me? While if you exploit in a duel, it DOES affect me.

You knew who you were going against.

I did not know I was facing someone exploiting Hammy-Os. I assumed someone on the PCity.com channel, would not stoop to that.

Are yeh gonna yell at Poison and Xan and Krypto for having ridiculously powerful abilities, I don't think so.

Depends on how they are using their powers.

Krypto, for instance, tries for a perma-Unstoppable. (Whether he uses Hammy-Os to do this, I don't know.) Unstoppable, isn't meant to be perma. (If he uses several Hammy-Os to do it, then I would call it exploitive.)

I don't know about what Poison or Xan do.

Poison is Rad/Rad, however, if he does not stack Hammy-Os, then it's not exploitive. Xan is Ice/Ice (or his main is), and unless he is using Hammy-Os, it's not exploitive.

Krypto is an Invunerable scrapper. Invunerable is an argueably overpowered set. However, using the set, is different than exploiting that set. (As perma-US would be.)

[Blue Bolt]

Having 5 (or 6) Debuffs in RI will give you a debuff (and thus an equivelant defense) similar to SR scrappers. RI is AUTO hit. With SOs, it is a powerful power. However, with Hammy-Os, it's overpowered. If you want an example of what 5 or 6 Hammy-Os will do in one power, see the Hammy-O thread. Having Hammy-Os, is different than using them to make one power more powerful than the devs intentioned. Just like Perma-Elude was never intentioned. (There is a thread on the official boards on Hammy-Os.)

So THAT'S why I couldn't hit ya. Dang. I only wish there was a DEF/END Hammy-O so I can uber my toggles in response to that. :|

[Xanatos]

All is fair in love and war.

HO's are fair. People put in the time to get them and should therefore have an advantage over those who don't. It's the same "train of logic" as those who put time into levelling up hereos and those who don't. A level 50 hero should have a clear advantage over a level 1.

[MaligneFamily]

So THAT'S why I couldn't hit ya. Dang. I only wish there was a DEF/END Hammy-O so I can uber my toggles in response to that. :|

Heh did you think that it was due to SR being nerfed... :P

I understand that my set is ridiculously powerful with HO's but that's something that happens. But to degrade one as to say he stack HO's as his only strategy is down right hilarious. I've participated in a total of 5 raids, and had no other supply, my HO's are going to my best skill and my work to get them is my way of accomplishing such a thing, point and case.


There is no exploiting of a power on people, there is of course using the power ridiculously, over and over again, casuing the other to think of a strategy. For instance, had I had some purple insp, your petrifying gazew would have been minimal, as would have been my stunning. You then could have run away and deactivated RI. For Unstoppable, at the very least you can try with a hold or move degradation on my part. There is no exploitation in a power that was easily knocked by many of my opponents and would've been easily accomplished had you *gasp* taken accuracy insp. which are again part of the game so any body can go ahead and use em :P . Also i like to meet the rad/rad defender who doesn't use RI, considering it's a staple of the rad set. Heck all my opponents that garnered a kill on me use an accu boosting power. This is the beauty of dueling, different strokes for different folks :chuckle:

Enough squabbling, arena misfeelings are not something to squabble about.

[Blue Bolt]

Heh did you think that it was due to SR being nerfed... :P

Not really. The only thing they nerfed was Elude, and as you can see here (http://www.cohguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328), I'm not a perma build ;)

[Darknesse]

All is fair in love and war.

HO's are fair. People put in the time to get them and should therefore have an advantage over those who don't. It's the same "train of logic" as those who put time into levelling up hereos and those who don't. A level 50 hero should have a clear advantage over a level 1.

I actually do not agree. This game is supposed to be lootless. If HO's are creating an imbalance between the Haves and Have-Nots then it is a bad thing by definition. Basically, what is wrong with the better player winning, rather than the guy with the time and connections to do the Hammy Raids over and over winning JUST because he is better "equipped"?

Example: EOR with HO's would beat EOR without HO's, all powerpicks and playskill being equal.. and that is not right.

That's why I gladly fight at L 46 or below for any fight, because I don't need the Uber buff from the HOs to win, I am that good.

I would also like to note that at L 50 the HO's are almost like 4 SOs in effectiveness, and that even if you "exemplar down", each HO is like 2 SOs, since it effects 2 different aspects of a power.

Basically, if you are L 50 or whatever and you get challenged by a lowbie, at least have the decency to lower the level cap so that it is actually a challenge and don't be a pansy about it.

I would like to point out that the Hand has 6 Dam/Acc HOs in Headsplitter, increased accuracy, Invuln and Buildup and as such would carve through a debuff so fast your face explodes.

However, my PVP choice is going to be the Engine, since He is simply more fun to play in PVP, and I would rather there be a more fair fight.

[Jade_Dragon]

I actually do not agree. This game is supposed to be lootless. If HO's are creating an imbalance between the Haves and Have-Nots then it is a bad thing by definition. Basically, what is wrong with the better player winning, rather than the guy with the time and connections to do the Hammy Raids over and over winning JUST because he is better "equipped"?


The only problem is, it isn't about the "better player winning". This is an RPG, not an FPS. Everything is based on haves and have nots. We all know that certain archetypes are always going to win over others. And even if you auto-exemplar, the higher level player still has the advantage. The actual "even match" is pretty rare, at least one on one.

If that's the case, then if you know you're going to lose, then why complain when you lose? You can't expect Maligne to just throw his HOs away, to heck with their value. As I said, he should have mentioned them in the first place, but now that you know about them, you know what to expect. Why dismiss what appeared to be a pretty good fight? Even if the result was never in doubt.

[Darknesse]

The only problem is, it isn't about the "better player winning". This is an RPG, not an FPS. Everything is based on haves and have nots. We all know that certain archetypes are always going to win over others. And even if you auto-exemplar, the higher level player still has the advantage. The actual "even match" is pretty rare, at least one on one.

If that's the case, then if you know you're going to lose, then why complain when you lose? You can't expect Maligne to just throw his HOs away, to heck with their value. As I said, he should have mentioned them in the first place, but now that you know about them, you know what to expect. Why dismiss what appeared to be a pretty good fight? Even if the result was never in doubt.
Not true at all. It really has nothing to do with have and have nots because the way the game is set up, its ALL about powerpicks and strategy.

Firstly, I did not play him, I have not lost a 1 on 1 match, and will beat the **** out of him if we fight so throw that garbage out.

Secondly, if someone at L 49 is going to talk all this trash about how good a PVP player he is, then he should have the guts to prove it and get rid of the HUGE advantage that the HO's give him when fighting a lower level char.

All I am saying is that the only way to find out who is the better player is to get rid of the HO's and fight on a more even playing field.

Frankly, if you are talking to everyone about your Uberness, and your Uberness is based ONLY on your HO's, then you ain't ####, because any loser with the time to farm Hamidon over and over is going to be just as good as you are, whereas the guys with the actual skill at the game are the ones that should be the ones beating their chest and saying they have something to be proud of.

Basically, bringing HO's to a PVP match and Insisting on using them is like bringing an assault rifle to a Mixed Martial Arts match and dominating. It's the equipment, not the player.

[D'Arkaine]

You know...there is one option i would love to see added to event creation - disable enhancements. This would let the people who are concerned over HOs limit their use. Plus i think it would be pretty fun to test the powers unenhanced.

This way, HOs are not changed and people can have matches without them throwing things off.

[Jade_Dragon]

Not true at all. It really has nothing to do with have and have nots because the way the game is set up, its ALL about powerpicks and strategy.

But the powerpicks are also "have" and "havenots". It's just because of the way the game is set up, with a Power the "have nots" can NEVER become "haves". Certain Powers dominate the arena. And more than likely that will always be true, since the devs will be constantly changing and tweaking the powers, which will require even more balancing.

The only way to have a truly "fair" and "balanced" fight as you describe it is for each player to build exactly the same character, at the same levels, and go into the arena with exactly the same Inspirations. That's the only way you can truly say that it depends on nothing but strategy, and which player is "better". Anything else is a combination of strategy and the specific build.

Also, I mean "you" in the universal sense. I didn't want to address either you or vyxzuw specifically, I'm just saying, "Here is a person who knows he is going to lose, because he knows that his opponent has a statistical advantage".

I do agree that limiting HO's should be an option, like the other "rules" you can set for a match. It's basically handicapping, which is the way you try and balance an uneven match.

[Darknesse]

But the powerpicks are also "have" and "havenots". It's just because of the way the game is set up, with a Power the "have nots" can NEVER become "haves". Certain Powers dominate the arena. And more than likely that will always be true, since the devs will be constantly changing and tweaking the powers, which will require even more balancing.

That's what respeccing is for. To date, I have only seen 2 powers dominate the Arena, Whirlwind and Repulsion Field, since they completely nullify melee characters.

[vyxzuw]

But the powerpicks are also "have" and "havenots".

NOT everyone has the time to spend getting Hammy-Os. NOT everyone has a SG behind them helping them get those Hammy-Os.

You are correct, in a way, however. Some sets are more powerful, because they have certain powers. However, most aggree that they should be balanced.

However, when it comes to Hammy-Os, people seem reluctant.

A 'loot' item, is a throwback to the old days, where people camped areas that spawned creatures that dropped certain objects. (In this case, the Hive, which spawns Hamidon, which drops Hammy-Os.)

That's the only way you can truly say that it depends on nothing but strategy, and which player is "better". Anything else is a combination of strategy and the specific build.

Sort of. You missed where building the character requires skill. (ie. Picking powers.) While Hammy-Os allow you to become powerful, even WITHOUT a good build.

To get 60% defense from SR, you need to slot your powers well. (You can get even higher, by using the power pool, and slotting differently.)

While sticking 6 Hamy-Os in a power, (or a good power at least) will make you just as powerful.

An item that allows even poor builds to beat good builds (even uber builds, at times).

Enhancements are meant as a way to make different powers. RI for instance, has a -Def and a -ACC. With SOs, you can make a powerful -Def power, with some -Acc, or you can make a powerful -Acc with a -Def, or a mix in between. However, Hammy-Os affect TWO powers at once. So, with 6 -Def/-Acc (assuming such a thing exists) you can have a powerful -Def and a powerful -Acc. Goodbye strategy.

Here's some food for thought.

If a lvl 50 rsks down to lvl 1, and fights. They have the same number of powers. (Two.) However, the lvl 50 had the option of slotting those powers. (At training levels, as the enhancements scale down.) If both are 6-slotted, the 50 is fighting at a 8*6=48% bonus. (Or 5*6=30) However, this will only affect ONE aspect. (For instance, the 50 might have 1 Acc and 5 Dam, giving a 8% Acc and a 40% dam boost.) However, with Hammy-Os, they can have a 48% acc AND dam boost. (In fact, regardless of whethe the 50 had SOs, DOs, or just training enhancements, he'd still have the same boost.) Thus, Hammy-Os affect even LOW level fights. Something that SOs, and DOs, do NOT do.

[Xanatos]

Time = Reward

The two things are synonamous in a MMORPG. If you don't like it and want a more 'balanced' game go and play a FPS. Players who put time into their characters deserve to have their power levels increase. We know this as players increase in power after accruing experience points.

So far all i've seen is people disagree with the impact of Hamidon Enhancers affecting the arena. No-where has anyone actually challenged the validity of players possesing them, or how legitimate the boost in power actually is in respect of the time it takes to get them.

[MaligneFamily]

You know...there is one option i would love to see added to event creation - disable enhancements. This would let the people who are concerned over HOs limit their use. Plus i think it would be pretty fun to test the powers unenhanced.

This way, HOs are not changed and people can have matches without them throwing things off.

Agreed that would be the fairest solution. The better solution would be to convert all of their properties into training enhancement ((trying to get back on the topic of solutions to arena disbalance/inequality/ethicality dillemas))

Well since we are on the topic of broken/not-as-powerful sets is there any other alternative for them to play *trying to look less arguementative *

[Jade_Dragon]

That's what respeccing is for. To date, I have only seen 2 powers dominate the Arena, Whirlwind and Repulsion Field, since they completely nullify melee characters.

You cannot respec out of one archetype or Power Set into another. And there are far more examples of "imbalance" than the two you give. They may not be as serious as HOs, (see below) but they are imbalanced.

Besides, respeccing just for the arena is just as wasteful as throwing away HO's just because your opponent doesn't like them. Respecs are something else you can "have" or "have not".

NOT everyone has the time to spend getting Hammy-Os. NOT everyone has a SG behind them helping them get those Hammy-Os.

You are correct, in a way, however. Some sets are more powerful, because they have certain powers. However, most aggree that they should be balanced.

However, when it comes to Hammy-Os, people seem reluctant.

Well, I'm not reluctant about changing anything. In fact, I mentioned that an option to limit them, or even disable Enhancements entirely, might not be a bad idea. I'm not saying that they are not imbalanced. Neither am I saying that they shouldn't be changed outright. (I don't really like the concept of a single Enhancement effecting two traits at all, actually)

However, the TOPIC is whether or not it is "fair" to use HO's if they are so imbalancing. I'm merely pointing out that there are other things that are imbalancing, some more so, some less. It's useless to talk about HOs as if they are the ONLY thing that are effecting the outcome of a match, when there are other factors that are just as imbalancing, and can just as easily make the fight not a "fair" one.

If I don't have an SG behind me, or haven't gotten to a high level, and don't have the time to spend hunting and exemplaring, I can find it hard to get the Influence I need for SOs. Doesn't that mean that SOs are an unfair advantage, as well? Aren't they also divided between the "haves" (In this case, Influence) and the "have nots"? What about Inspirations, and temporary powers? There IS "loot" in this game, it's just not intended to give a very large advantage.

Sort of. You missed where building the character requires skill. (ie. Picking powers.) While Hammy-Os allow you to become powerful, even WITHOUT a good build.


I was waiting for someone to bring this up. It's not that I don't respect the skill and knowledge that goes into building the "best" possible character. That is, in fact, a type of "skill", totally independent of "strategy". In fact, you might say that while a FPS has strategy, as well as the sort of aiming and hand/eye coordination that are typically called "skill", (and some people can be naturally better at that than others) RPGs have strategy and character building.

However, if you build a character that is superior, that does not change the fact that it is going to have an advantage in the arena. Maybe you have a license to bring that machine gun into the martial arts tournament, and it's in accordance with the rules, but you haven't changed the fact that it's an advantage. If the advantage is great enough, then you don't need strategy. The strength of your character is more than enough.

What you seem to be saying is that it's not fair that HO's give the "ordinary person" the ability to get his "ordinary character" up to the level of your "uber character" which you got through your "skill". All I'm saying is that both characters are going to win, every time. Gameplay "skill", or what I would rather call "strategy", doesn't enter into it.

Keep in mind that I'm not necessarily calling this BAD. I would rather have a foe that is more powerful than me, and put up a good fight, than not fight at all. I understand that that's part of the concept of an RPG. Build comes first, then, IF it's close to equal, and that's a big if, then strategy. Strategy more determines the challenge of the fight, and how long it lasts. (And how much fun it is...)

[MaligneFamily]

Time = Reward

The two things are synonamous in a MMORPG. If you don't like it and want a more 'balanced' game go and play a FPS. Players who put time into their characters deserve to have their power levels increase. We know this as players increase in power after accruing experience points.

So far all i've seen is people disagree with the impact of Hamidon Enhancers affecting the arena. No-where has anyone actually challenged the validity of players possesing them, or how legitimate the boost in power actually is in respect of the time it takes to get them.

Exactly. On a second note, one who has PLed his way completely to 'greatness' won't have the skill/time/effort experience neccesary to use them correctly nor will he really have any strategy.

[Jade_Dragon]

Exactly. On a second note, one who has PLed his way completely to 'greatness' won't have the skill/time/effort experience neccesary to use them correctly nor will he really have any strategy.

Well, that's true. Perhaps I should say that build comes first, unless the other player is really, really stupid.

Honestly, we can assume that most people who spend any significant amount of time with their character will develop successful strategies. So some will be better than others, but all will be pretty good. Although there ARE people who rely entirely on their build, and are not interested in strategy at all. (I wouldn't expect anyone here to be like that, because I wouldn't expect such a person to be interested enough in the game to stop at its boards. He would be just out to "beat the game", then move on to something else)

[Akamaz]

I am a good example of the above post, i've been playing my defenders and blasters so much lately, that last night I went into the Arena with my scrapper, and proceeded to get my @$$ handed to me, because I couldn't run fast enough to catch the blaster, or have the health/healing to keep up with the tanker.

for the past month my skills ran along the lines of fly along and blast, and as a result, my "chase em down and slash" muscles atrophied

[MaligneFamily]

Lets also remember guys, dueling isn't a War, it's a friendly exchange :). One of my favorite battles was having Xan beat me 13-1. It was all good nature. Now if you want war, go to WoW. Or wait till CoV...

*begins to pray that that transition comes peacefully*

[Darknesse]

Time = Reward

The two things are synonamous in a MMORPG. If you don't like it and want a more 'balanced' game go and play a FPS. Players who put time into their characters deserve to have their power levels increase. We know this as players increase in power after accruing experience points.

So far all i've seen is people disagree with the impact of Hamidon Enhancers affecting the arena. No-where has anyone actually challenged the validity of players possesing them, or how legitimate the boost in power actually is in respect of the time it takes to get them.

Firstly, bite me with that whole go play an FPS thing, thats crap and you should know better. Hell, that's like me saying "you like your uber loot so much, go play WOW", which is BS too.

Secondly, the risk to reward for a HO is WAY off. It's not like you cant just run in after he is held and hit him one time then wait for him to die, or even if you go through the mito phase and die, to a L 50 debt is meaningless.

Thirdly, this is about ethics. If you want to have an actual Duel, then you want to fight at a lower level where the HOs are not as much as an impact. If you are going to talk **** about how good you are, then prove how good YOU are, not your UB3R L00T, basically, let's see who is better.

If you get off by having a massive advantage, then fine, use your O's against the noob and feel so good that you have crushed someone and likely made a match unfun for him. Then get in one with someone like me that can actually stand up to your L33t LooT and get your ass kicked, instead of picking on the lowbie, then backing down when the big boys come to play.

Exactly. On a second note, one who has PLed his way completely to 'greatness' won't have the skill/time/effort experience neccesary to use them correctly nor will he really have any strategy.

Absurd.

I can PL a Scrapper, Tanker, or Controller to 50, pick up a bunch of O's and dominate PVP the same as if I had played all the way there. It's not like this game is that complicated.

[Xanatos]

Eloquent as always Darknesse. By the way read my post again - you didn't understand it.

[MaligneFamily]

I can PL a Scrapper, Tanker, or Controller to 50, pick up a bunch of O's and dominate PVP the same as if I had played all the way there. It's not like this game is that complicated.

Great! Now that I know my 6 months of playing my main were useless, I'll just go to PI and lvl at insane speeds !

/sarcasm

[Jade_Dragon]

Firstly, bite me with that whole go play an FPS thing, thats crap and you should know better. Hell, that's like me saying "you like your uber loot so much, go play WOW", which is BS too.

Notice, I didn't say that, because I KNOW better. :D

As I said, there's nothing wrong with the RPG system. There's room enough for strategy, particularly in a mixed group. And as Xanatos said, I don't think that it's THAT HOs are an advantage, because I think we all agree they are, but HOW MUCH of an advantage is fair.

I can PL a Scrapper, Tanker, or Controller to 50, pick up a bunch of O's and dominate PVP the same as if I had played all the way there. It's not like this game is that complicated.

Well, yeah, but you are an experienced player with a number of different archetypes under your belt. You have enough experience with the characters that you have played to be able to pick up any specific strategies in a few minutes. (Or maybe hours, not longer than that I'm sure)

[Darknesse]

Eloquent as always Darknesse. By the way read my post again - you didn't understand it.

No, I completely understood it. As it stands, NOTHING about HOs are balanced. It's like 5 min of work (for those cheesy bastards that run in and swing 1 time at the end), for a MASSIVE increase of power.

[The Widowed]

That's why I gladly fight at L 46 or below for any fight, because I don't need the Uber buff from the HOs to win, I am that good.
Heh. Are you sure? :eyebrow:

I remember the Brawl-for-All. Remember the first match, where I imposed a level cap to put us all on the same level as Mahaf and Pirate Hollis? You kept complaining and complaining about the level cap. You finally got your way with the second match onward; The level cap was abolished, and you proceeded to steamroll anyone who was of a lower level than Engine of Ruin. And gloat about it.

See? I remember things. Or have you learned the joys of a level playing field since then? :eyebrow:

[Darknesse]

Heh. Are you sure?

I remember the Brawl-for-All. Remember the first match, where I imposed a level cap to put us all on the same level as Mahaf and Pirate Hollis? You kept complaining and complaining about the level cap. You finally got your way with the second match onward; The level cap was abolished, and you proceeded to steamroll anyone who was of a lower level than Engine of Ruin. And gloat about it.

See? I remember things. Or have you learned the joys of a level playing field since then? Actually, your memory is flawed.

If you want to ask any of my teammates (Hollis, Malibu and Frost), the first game that was exemplared down to lower levels, I grabbed The Darknesse, who was L 26, and chased Krypto around because he kept killing Hollis, after I exemplared down and found that my power picks were totally gimped at 26 with my L 50.

In fact, I didn't play the Hand (L 50) until much later, during the no level free for all (during which I tried to kill Krypto for the whole time, you can ask him), and after 1 game I figured it was too cheesy with my O's and switched to the Engine of Ruin, who was 39 at the time.

Even after I grabbed the Engine, the only ones I fought alot were Sonic Star, Randomus, Cryo, and Krypto, who were all higher level than the Engine at the time, unless I was attacked by a lower level char (and AGAIN, you can ask anyone that was there, except yourself I guess).

It seems I have been practicing what I preached the whole time... I believe that's called "Face", Widowed.

[The Widowed]

Actually, your memory is flawed.
We'll see.

If you want to ask any of my teammates (Hollis, Malibu and Frost), the first game that was exemplared down to lower levels, I grabbed The Darknesse, who was L 26, and chased Krypto around because he kept killing Hollis, after I exemplared down and found that my power picks were totally gimped at 26 with my L 50.
Selective memory seems to have edited out the parts where you went on and on about how much you positively hated the level cap. You wanted to play one of your higher-ups--not lowly Darknesse--and you made no secret about it, and apparently it was after you realized that I wasn't going to relent and remove the Weight Class limit that you switched to Darknesse to cut your losses.

Oh, how that complaining and carrying on got on my nerves. A couple of other players in the match (who shall remain anonymous, as I'm not ratting anyone out here) were swapping Tells with me which went somewhere along the line of "Is he gonna whine, or is he gonna fight?".

So thank you for finally settling on Darknesse, entering the fray and giving our heads peace. He's not a bad character, you know. Really. You should play him more often. :cool:

In fact, I didn't play the Hand (L 50) until much later, during the no level free for all (during which I tried to kill Krypto for the whole time, you can ask him), and after 1 game I figured it was too cheesy with my O's and switched to the Engine of Ruin, who was 39 at the time.

Even after I grabbed the Engine, the only ones I fought alot were Sonic Star, Randomus, Cryo, and Krypto, who were all higher level than the Engine at the time, unless I was attacked by a lower level char (and AGAIN, you can ask anyone that was there, except yourself I guess).
Of course, by the final match there weren't too many Heroes left who were a lower level than Engine; Most of the players had either bailed out or had switched to higher-level alts. Apparently they didn't like getting annihilated by the SL40+ crowd either. :shinner:

It seems I have been practicing what I preached the whole time... I believe that's called "Face", Widowed.
And did I say you had lost any face? No, I was simply snatching the wind from the sails of your whole "I'll meet you at your level, and not complain about it, and win" assertion. Reputation has nothing to do with it. But the next thing we know, you'll be claiming that you let Widdy knock Darknesse out a few times in that first match. That or such-and-such power wasn't working as it should. :cool:

And don't take my guff personally. I hassle all the big egos. I can accept that they all embody just another facet of the many personalities in the cosmos, but really....they do make some very bright and shiny targets.... :chuckle:

[Darknesse]

It's true tho. I have dueled Esbat a number of times, but usually I have done it with an even level, or lower, since there is no challenge with the Hand or Engine.

[The Widowed]

Which reminds me: When do I get to duel Esbat or Dog Fight, anyway? Doggie missed the first Urban Bushido tourney, and I missed the second....

And will I ever get to battle my favorite Moo Cow again? :)

[vyxzuw]

You do realize, if someone has a SG behind them then they may also have someone giving them build tips?
***
Time=Reward.

So, perma-US is fine. Since someone who levels to a level to use it, should be rewarded with game-breaking abilites?

That's what we're talking about, just 5-6 Hammy-Os turning anyone into an uber build. (And it not much thought to dump them in a poweful power.)

5-6...People spend HOURS earning badges...and get...a title. (And maybe an accolade)

If time=reward, then why don't badges give more reward? Some people spend more time getting them, than some do getting Hammy-Os.
***
The motto, btw Xan, of the Devs, is RISK=REWARD. Badges, aren't very risky. (Most, anyways.)

Hamidon, is SUPPOSED to be risky. However, some people join a raid, and do basically nothing, and get a hammy-o. Not very risky.
***
An idea, on Hammy-Os. (Well, a second. I posted another in another thread, and the same idea on the boards. Which was letting only one Hammy-O in any given power. Thus, you can have as many Hammy-Os as you have powers, but not two in one power.)

The idea: Make Hammy-Os only one aspect, at 50%. (50% is pretty damn powerful, and IMO TOO high for any enhancement.) Since it's only one aspect, if you fight at a lower rank, (say level 1, per my previous example) your hammy-os would scale just like DOs, and SOs.

This would mean that Hammy-Os would only be useful in high level matches, (or all-level) where others have a chance to get them. This makes them similar to the power of SOs, to those below 22. (Take a 21 decked out with DOs, against a 22 decked out in SOs.)
***
The devs have already commented on how SOs make the high level game too easy. So, why they would want Hammy-Os, that are WAY more powerful, to be as available as they are, is beyond me.
***
Also, personally, Duels are mostly about builds, and seldom about skill. (As has been pointed out, some builds are made from the player's skill. However, others are made from someone elses skill, and they just used what was posted in a guide.)

The best PvP, is team fights. In those, you need to work as a team, to do well. (Even uber builds, won't win, if the other team keeps killing your teamates...)

[Yin]

Though I skimmed the thread, please, lets keep it somewhat civil. I'm not threatening to lock/delete it. Just asking to keep it as peaceful as possible. Thanks. :)

[MaligneFamily]

You do realize, if someone has a SG behind them then they may also have someone giving them build tips?


I have never had the luxury of build tips, except for a time when I asked Poison for some slight advice. Nor do I think that SG's shouldn't givce advice if requested. You're there and you're part of a group of friends.

Hamidon's are risky, if your an active part. Yeah of course you can mooch, but there are always bad apples, no matter where you go. Hamidon is now even riskier, and seeing as I'm not UBER_MAN, I will be playing in that game of risk

[Darknesse]

I have never had the luxury of build tips, except for a time when I asked Poison for some slight advice. Nor do I think that SG's shouldn't givce advice if requested. You're there and you're part of a group of friends.

Hamidon's are risky, if your an active part. Yeah of course you can mooch, but there are always bad apples, no matter where you go. Hamidon is now even riskier, and seeing as I'm not UBER_MAN, I will be playing in that game of risk
What risk at L 50? Meaningless debt? Even before 50, the chance of you dying is actually pretty small if you do it right.

[vyxzuw]

Hamidon is now even riskier, and seeing as I'm not UBER_MAN, I will be playing in that game of risk

Not Uber-Man? You have a 120% ACC Debuff! Not that you have 6 Hammy-Os, it's even EASIER to get more.
***
Note: I never said that YOU were PLed, or handed Hammy-Os, or got build tips. However, I'm saying there isn't anything stopping people from doing so.

There's a distance leash on Hunting in maps, to try to prevent PL. (In other words, they're working on that.)

Why aren't they doing somehting about Hamidon? Well, how many people can DO Hamidon? What percentage? (As opposed to the percentage of people that can be PLed.)

What risk at L 50? Meaningless debt?

Not everyone who has Hammy-Os is lvl 50. (Slash for instance is lvl 49...)

[Darknesse]

Not everyone who has Hammy-Os is lvl 50. (Slash for instance is lvl 49...)
Which is why I said that the risk is minimal for you even if you are under 50(Btw, he hit 50 the other day), provided you do it right and don't charge in alone.

[MaligneFamily]

Guys I doubt there is a risky mission in the game when its down to your logic, and even if you perform well in it, it must mean "you are too uber..."

Point and case, People use HO's, live with it. They are a part of the game that me, as a paying customer happens to like. Many people use such HO's and seeing as Evo has a resevior of HOs, I would advise not to insult them as well, seeing as they are phenomanal players in and out of mission. You are calling for fairness on you grounds. In other words your whining, thus destroying a thread i had planned on pooling thoughts of how to deal with people who had a lesser advantage in PvP.

I think I've had enough insults. If somebody could lock this pitifull thread it would be massively appreciated.
If somebody got rid of Arena, it would be even more ...

[MaligneFamily]

I would also like to add, its easy for someone of lvl 44 to go about and insult HO users when he can't acheive their use for another 3 lvls...

[vyxzuw]

Now, to show that your arguement is flawed, by using another example:

Soloing AVs, and perma-powers.

Point and case, People use HO's, live with it. They are a part of the game that me, as a paying customer happens to like.

People use Perma-Whatever, live with it.
People can solo AVs, live with it.

They are part of the game, blah blah.

If you choose to play a blaster, that can't solo at high levels, and not play a scrapper, and thus choose to suck, that's your problem...(Anyone want to comment on where that's from?)

I would also like to add, its easy for someone of lvl 44 to go about and insult HO users when he can't acheive their use for another 3 lvls...

Yeah, all of you non-scrappers who couldn't solo an AV, have no right to call for nerfs.

Hate the playa, not the game...(Or hate the game, and go play WoW...)

Blasters can't complain about not being able to solo, because it would be whining.
***
Yeah, nice arguement style...
***
Many people use such HO's and seeing as Evo has a resevior of HOs, I would advise not to insult them as well, seeing as they are phenomanal players in and out of mission.

So in other words, there are SGs that collect Hammy-Os for their members, thus their member don't even have to GO on a Hamidon Raid to get them...

And not to mention, the people that can offer those Hammy-Os to people for things,...even things outside the game.

[Darknesse]

I would also like to add, its easy for someone of lvl 44 to go about and insult HO users when he can't acheive their use for another 3 lvls...

I would like to add that you need to keep that crap to yourself. He is not insulting HO users, but rather stating (and correctly) that they give an advantage in the arena, and should not be used for 1 on 1 duels.

There is nothing wrong with a fair fight, even if it means you might lose.

[Xanatos]

Your definition of 'fair' is debateable Darknesse. In my opinion, as expressed earlier and as was uncontested by any of the parties in this discussion, is that Hamidon Enhancers are completely fair.

[vyxzuw]

In my opinion, as expressed earlier and as was uncontested by any of the parties in this discussion, is that Hamidon Enhancers are completely fair.

Uncontested? :hm:

[Darknesse]

Your definition of 'fair' is debateable Darknesse. In my opinion, as expressed earlier and as was uncontested by any of the parties in this discussion, is that Hamidon Enhancers are completely fair.

Uncontested?

Huh? I recall stating that they give an unfair advantage in PVP MULTIPLE times and should be banned from the Arena, the fights should not be decided by the loot you are packing but rather the best player.

[MaligneFamily]

Your arguement would also ban the acheivement of aquiring badges... they have no risk anyways! :grr:

[MaligneFamily]

Uncontested?

Huh? I recall stating that they give an unfair advantage in PVP MULTIPLE times and should be banned from the Arena, the fights should not be decided by the loot you are packing but rather the best player.

The best player would be won who took it maturely when the announcement of HOs came about, not one that makes 4 pages worth of pure blasting of certain players and me directly.

[Yin]

I, personally, don't give a hoot owl about Hami-Os and unfairness. Yes, I do get a little annoyed at times when I go up against people with Hami-Os, but I do the Arena for fun. I never do level caps unless someone asks me to. I'll go up against a level 50 Hami-Oed-up Fire/Fire Tanker and do the best I can. Then I'll get commented with a, "Good match. You did better then I expected," from the person.

It's irritating when you have the whiners constantly announcing how unfair and unbalanced things are during the match. I just don't understand why people can't sit back and enjoy the Arena without turning it into a haven to house egos and sour attitudes. I don't think that's what the Devs intended it to be. S'why I tell everyone to take the "Yin-approach" when going into the Arena. I do more complimenting people who knock me out cold because I like the tactics they use in order to do so. Some people are just clever.

[vyxzuw]

Badges aren't much of a reward either...

Badges that give Accolades involve work. (Including missions.) For what is usually a temp power every 30 minutes. The 5% or 10% boosts to end and health accolades, require a LOT more risk, than some spend on getting their Hammy-Os.

I, personally, don't give a hoot owl about Hami-Os and unfairness.

When taunt was perma-able in the Arena, on test, did you ever go up against a group that was purposefully trying to use it to win matches? Would you have cared? Would you have gone up against them again?

Would you have complimented them on their tactics?

[Darknesse]

Your arguement would also ban the acheivement of aquiring badges... they have no risk anyways! :grr:

So there is no risk in any of the AV badges? Or the ones for the arcs?

Suure.

Look, I actually have around 15 Hammy O's on the Hand, but even I think they are cheap. I accept their existance, but just feel that they have no place in the Arena, where everything SHOULD in my opinion come down to who is better, not who is better equipped.

[Yin]

Badges aren't much of a reward either...

Badges that give Accolades involve work. (Including missions.) For what is usually a temp power every 30 minutes. The 5% or 10% boosts to end and health accolades, require a LOT more risk, than some spend on getting their Hammy-Os.



When taunt was perma-able in the Arena, on test, did you ever go up against a group that was purposefully trying to use it to win matches? Would you have cared? Would you have gone up against them again?

Would you have complimented them on their tactics?

Yes, yes, and yes. Again, I do it for fun. What others do is there business. Anyone else want to ask a question in which I can repeat myself?

[Darknesse]

Yes, yes, and yes. Again, I do it for fun. What others do is there business. Anyone else want to ask a question in which I can repeat myself?
But you can see where the more competetive players would be frustrated by that, correct? Dying in PVP is just like dying in PVE for some people. They just don't like to lose.

Personally, I don't mind as long as it's not cheesy. Krypto has killed me a few times and it was ok, but the 1 time I got chain held by the pet exploit that the devs fixed pissed me off.

[MaligneFamily]

But you can see where the more competetive players would be frustrated by that, correct? Dying in PVP is just like dying in PVE for some people. They just don't like to lose.

Personally, I don't mind as long as it's not cheesy. Krypto has killed me a few times and it was ok, but the 1 time I got chain held by the pet exploit that the devs fixed pissed me off.

Have you ever asked or questioned how many HOs Krypto has? So i guess it matter's who it comes from. If froma relatively unknown fellow somebody pushes forth his challenge and he uses HOs, then it's a misdead... Known powerful people on the other hand are not.

Competitive player are also using HO's. It takes some time to get an HO, even more now due to the upping of Hami, and yet you think it's not a challenge. Also I like your preaching. I cant use my main power in my primary set, it's like telling you no petrifying gaze... all because of six HO's i own in all. You on the other hand own 15, which have to be of some value to you since you went through the trouble of storing them on alts, seeing as only one is big enough for Hami

[Yin]

But you can see where the more competetive players would be frustrated by that, correct? Dying in PVP is just like dying in PVE for some people. They just don't like to lose.

Personally, I don't mind as long as it's not cheesy. Krypto has killed me a few times and it was ok, but the 1 time I got chain held by the pet exploit that the devs fixed pissed me off.

Yep. I see it as such. :)

[vyxzuw]

Sigh.

Alright, obviously we're not going to arrive at a concession on Hammy-Os. Although, we shouldn't have to. (The Devs may do that in time, though.)

So, let's focus on the second reason for this thread. (The first, was Slash talking about the PvP match that him and I had.)

And that is, a consensus on what is ethical, in PvP matches. Of course, as this thread shows, not everyone will aggree on what is ethical. (So, we should allow for different ethics.)

Aggreeing on what is ethical, before a match, with your opponent, should be done.

Some ideas: Ethical use of powers.
For instance, Hammy-Os, are a heated topic. (Here, AND the main boards.)
As well as other heated topics, that may or may not arise. (This shouldn't be a ban on a specific power, but rather an abuse of a specific power. For instance, getting a quick kill early, and then using stealth and Superspeed to deny your opponent the ability to fight, may be called unethical by some players.)

Deciding on the rules of the match. Whether inspires will be allowed. Whether there will be a level cap.

The Hammy-Os Official Thread has been on the board awhile now. What you did was assume your ethics that Hammy-Os were fair, on me, by not informing me of them.

Using RI, is not the issue, using Hammy-Os to make that power beyond what the devs want is. (And since they think that SOs make the end game easy, then they should think that Hammy-Os make the end game RIDICULOUSLY so.)

Assuming that I would be fine with that, is not right.

I said before the match, that I was DA. I said I had Petrifying Gaze, and would be using it.

You did not give me the same respect back, in letting me know that you were using Hammy-Os to make RI into an uber power.

If I were to face Darknesse's lvl 50, I know he has an uber build. So, if I choose to go into a event against him, I know what to expect.

This doesn't mean giving away the farm. But letting them know what you consider fair. (Using Hammy-Os to stack powers, is an ethics question. One that should be addressed before the match.)

[Darknesse]

Have you ever asked or questioned how many HOs Krypto has? So i guess it matter's who it comes from. If froma relatively unknown fellow somebody pushes forth his challenge and he uses HOs, then it's a misdead... Known powerful people on the other hand are not.


No, I know how many he has. I have never seen him utterly refuse to exemplar down for a duel tho...

[MaligneFamily]

Thats the thing, after our first game you went on to yell that I was an unfair prick (which seeing as I have been beaten, and the RI is not unvincible power to those with skill), you then proceeded to insult me. Seeing that no matter what I would do I wouldn't please you, I refuse to play with you. Had you asked me and made it clear before the fight it would've been no matter, yet you new iwas of higher level seeing as we waited in the arena lobby for five minutes before starting. for you to tyhen come and complain irrationally even after I complimented you seems preposterous.

Also may I add that, like you said before, HOs keep their power even when exemplared, so I'd like to see your complaining when against Krypto. It seems that this conumdrum is based more on more who has them.

I have my rad set, I have used my hero for quite a few months now, RI is my most powerful power at this very moment. It has to do with the effects of my Lysos and Enzymes. Yet half my times in arena battle I die... and not because foolishness, but rather because I am learning what to do. Ask Xan with his 3 shotted kill, if that is fair. Yes it perfectly is as he has the right for the best a character can give with whatever the devs provide us in game. What the devs are concerned about is the challenge of PvE, not PvP. Though admittedly some powersets are weak in PvP, they can do a simple thing to get past this. Avoid the arena, or on a harder way, find ways to pass this problem.

[Darknesse]

Thats the thing, after our first game you went on to yell that I was an unfair prick (which seeing as I have been beaten, and the RI is not unvincible power to those with skill), you then proceeded to insult me. Seeing that no matter what I would do I wouldn't please you, I refuse to play with you. Had you asked me and made it clear before the fight it would've been no matter, yet you new iwas of higher level seeing as we waited in the arena lobby for five minutes before starting. for you to tyhen come and complain irrationally even after I complimented you seems preposterous.


Sigh... You haven't dueled me so I am going to assume you are talking to someone else.. even though the rest of your comments seem to be directed towards me.

Also may I add that, like you said before, HOs keep their power even when exemplared, so I'd like to see your complaining when against Krypto. It seems that this conumdrum is based more on more who has them.

As I said before, it is not the fact that HOs are more powerful than SOs that bother me, its the MAGNITUDE of the boost that bothers me. At full power, a HO is about 4 SOS. Exemplared they are 2. BIG difference.

Whatever. Obviously I am not complaining because I have been killed by HOs because I haven't. What I am doing is sticking up for the have-nots and telling you not to run your mouth talking about how good "you" are in PVP, when it is CLEARLY the HO's, not the player, since you refuse to fight without them.

If you want to prove something, fight someone that actually HAS the HO's, like myself. I will beat you worse than Krypto did.

Either way, I am done with this thread.

[Xanatos]

Uncontested?

Huh? I recall stating that they give an unfair advantage in PVP MULTIPLE times and should be banned from the Arena, the fights should not be decided by the loot you are packing but rather the best player.

The argument I used was uncontested as you said nothing against it. (i.e. contradicting it's logic or proving it to be incorrect) You merely pointed out what you considered to be the negative impact of the subject matter to which the argument was based around.

[vyxzuw]

Apparently you didn't read my posts, then.

I have questioned several times, the risk required for the reward you get.

(The reward being able to make an uber build, with just 6 Hammy-Os...where other uber builds require MANY powers, and correct slotting to work.)

If someone can have someone else get hammy-os FOR them, then there is no risk REQUIRED for the reward.

(Someone being able to make the risk higher for themselves, is irrelevant. Just as irrelevant as if a scrapper CHOOSE to do an invincible mission solo, without using Defensive toggles or inspires...The question is what risk is REQUIRED.)

I also questioned the intentded reward of Hammy-Os. The devs consider the high levels too easy, due to SOs. So, I find it doubtful that they would intentionally put into the game an object that would allow characters to surpass that level. (As I've said, before, putting one Hammy-Os, even in ALL of your powers, does not overbalance a character...it is only when you STACK hammy-os.) The devs don't always consider what the players will due. (Stateman, for instance, has said he didn't consider players using hasten to perma-powers.)

Just because the game allows it, doesn't mean the devs INTEND for the game to allow it.

Also...your arguement was time=reward. (I've said that badges take longer...but give no reward...so thus, that's false. It's RISK=Reward.)

[Xanatos]

Oh yeah didn't see that one :) However, you label me with an assumption I didn't make:

So, perma-US is fine. Since someone who levels to a level to use it, should be rewarded with game-breaking abilites?

I was not discussing levels, merely the time spent to get them. And how the time spent getting them lead to a significant increase in power. Similarly, the time spent getting HO's (it's not a fast process to get enough HO's to be noticeably different in the arena) should also lead to an increase in power. (The game mechanics should always cater to developing one's character - if there is a level cap - a substitute shoudl be found.)

It is unfair for those not prepared to put the time into getting HO's to demand those with them should be 'on par' with those without. This is similar to low level folsk complaining that high level players are allowed into areas of the city they are not. Put the time in and you'll be rewarded.

Are HO's game-breaking? I don't think so.

[MaligneFamily]

Again I'd like to contest that Krypto is afine player, and has HOs, and probably more than me. Xan, who also has HOs has beat me. Nuclear Warrior, who I don't know if he has full HOs, has beaten me. I have made one comment in all about my capabilities, which was to say "I am good enough, i think." One of you two made several comments leading onto saying how you will beat me to a pulp. therefore with all these factors I think that you win my personal imbecile of the week award, for taking threads out of proportion getting angry at me instead of the devs for a great power, and most of all making a claim that I doubt will be true. And for tthis you are....

Knock it off here, drop the "imbecile of the week" bull**** and do try to avoid flaming. These type of threads are volatile, don't be the one to light the freaking match.

- Mike :makis:

[vyxzuw]

I was not discussing levels, merely the time spent to get them.

So...thus the time spent GETTING those levels, so you can use Perma-Unstoppable, justifies them in using it. (And thus, it shouldn't have been nerfed...)

Similarly, the time spent getting HO's (it's not a fast process to get enough HO's to be noticeably different in the arena) should also lead to an increase in power.

Hmmm....get to lvl 47, have your SG mates give you six Hammy-Os...(The getting to 47, does not earn you Hammy-Os. Thus, the required time, to get Hammy-Os...0.)

(The game mechanics should always cater to developing one's character - if there is a level cap - a substitute shoudl be found.)

The game mechanics should always cater to the player having fun. (Earning badges, does not develop a character...nor does earning a cape. But, those things are fun.)

YOUR philosophy of the game, is irrelevent, it's the DEVS philosophy of the game.

For that matter...does PvP develop your character? Hmm...

It is unfair for those not prepared to put the time into getting HO's to demand those with them should be 'on par' with those without.

Or those with. (Check the official thread, on talk on how Hammy-Os punish those with Defense and Resistance.)

And no, I'm not saying 'on par'. With ONE Hammy-O in each power, you achieve a significant boost.

(For instance, replacing a ACC enhancement in an attack, with a Acc/Dam will give an additional 50% damage boost, and a 50-33=17% additional ACC boost.)

And again, WHAT time does it require? You can have someone GIVE you the Hammy-Os, and never go on a raid...

This is similar to low level folsk complaining that high level players are allowed into areas of the city they are not.

So, why are high level players ALSO saying it's bad?

Are HO's game-breaking? I don't think so.

6 -ACCs in RI will bring an AV with a 100% chance to hit, down to -20%...(one power...and the AV has a 5% chance to hit...no, not game breaking at all...)

[MaligneFamily]

Hmmm....get to lvl 47, have your SG mates give you six Hammy-Os...(The getting to 47, does not earn you Hammy-Os. Thus, the required time, to get Hammy-Os...0.)





6 -ACCs in RI will bring an AV with a 100% chance to hit, down to -20%...(one power...and the AV has a 5% chance to hit...no, not game breaking at all...)

These two things are perturbing. First off I know of very little SGs that give out HOs to their friends in the SG. All my HOs are earned, heck even when one in our Hami-Raid group today DCed out right before the Hami-death, nobody offered her a HO, and I can make a bet that most on our team have quite a few in their stockpile.

Secondly, my power is used against an AV, so I can be protected. Have you seen my damage at the current level? It is dismal, in fact so dismal it's better to sit and heal most of the time. AV's come with minions, and it is part of that mission that I cannot handle all at the same time. I still cannot hit an SR scrapper such as Blue Bolt. Nor can I survive an enhanced accuracy from a tanker blaster, or an type of AT for that matter. A Controller would still be pure hell for me, especially those that cast their pets onto me. I am far from invincible with RI on, it just puts me on a more even playing field than that of a regular defender without RI. Also are you gonna complain that a Blaster does too much damage, no your not. My job is to debuff and therefore I do my job. I don't ask a tanker not to taunt, nor a healer not to heal so good since its game breaking. And may I add, if you have not invested in accu enhancements when going against any Rads... well then you're out of luck no matter what.

[vyxzuw]

I still cannot hit an SR scrapper such as Blue Bolt.

Have you tried using AoE attacks? SR Scrappers can only get so much AoE defense. (From Lucky, Evasion, and Elude.) Your RI has a Def debuff. (Also, since you can use -ACC/-DEF Hammy-Os, you should be able to make it so he can't hit you, and you can hit him...one reason why Hammy-Os are broken, the remove the need to CHOOSE how to slot a power.)

Also, Elude isn't perma anymore...so there's a time when he's vulnerable.

Since he can't hit you, you need only wait until it falls...and take him out. (Thus, you get a kill, he has none...you win.)

If you want numbers, I can do that.

I don't ask a tanker not to taunt, nor a healer not to heal so good since its game breaking.

Let's remove the resist cap for tanks. After all a tanks job is to be able to take damage...so there's no reason to cap him, just because its game breaking.

[MaligneFamily]

Also, Elude isn't perma anymore...so there's a time when he's vulnerable.


If you want numbers, I can do that.




Numbers are something Dev's never really wanted in the game. I prefer to be as blind as many others are. I'm casual when it comes to numbers, and so it was intended that way for many people. Also let me add that while I'm good at debuffing, my attacks are squat and even against an SR guy like BB, I would not hit him. And personally I dont care for numbers, if I wanted numbers it would ruin my love for the game.

[Xanatos]

Bah circular arguments :(

[vyxzuw]

Also let me add that while I'm good at debuffing, my attacks are squat and even against an SR guy like BB, I would not hit him.

Once his Elude falls, even WITHOUT any enhancments in RI, you'll be able to hit him at least 50% of the time with AoE attacks.

(Note: Single target attacks will probably do squat.)

Numbers are something Dev's never really wanted in the game.

Then why publish a strategy guide with them?

And personally I dont care for numbers, if I wanted numbers it would ruin my love for the game.

Fair enough.

I simply said I would provide numbers, if you want me to prove it. (Although, it's just as easy to duel Blue Bolt, and wait until his Elude falls, and use AoE attacks. Elude, I believe, last 3 minutes...)

Bah circular arguments

Wrong, you said that time=reward. I gave you something that MUST be true, if time=reward. (As well as other examples)

Your arguement, is that since you spent time getting Hammy-Os, that you should be able to USE Hammy-Os.

The same arguement holds for Perma-Powers. (They spent time GETTING to those levels, thus earning the reward.)

Thus, if your arguement of time=reward is true, then Perma-Powers should be allowed.
***
Now, for a 'math' based proof of why Hammy-Os shouldn't be Stacked.

Fact: The devs have said that SOs have lead to the higher level game being too easy.
So: x is a member of set N (nerf) if x>S. (x allows you to achieve a higher level than what can be done with SOs.)

Fact: Hammy-Os allow you to achieve a higher level than SOs. (They increase a power by 50%, while SOs increase it by 33%...roughly 5/3=1.6. So, Hammy-Os are 60% more powerful than SOs. Of course, they actually boost TWO ascpects. So, they boost for 100%, but let's make that 60% instead, and assume that many Hammy-Os secondary effects are waisted...such as a Dam/Ran in a melee attack. So, 60/30=2. Thus they are more like 2SOs.)
So: H>S

Thus: H is a member of set N.

Q.E.D.

(Remember, that the devs are working to make the higher level game harder BECAUSE of SOs. If Hammy-Os allow you to achieve a higher level than that. Then they must either make the game even HARDER, or remove Hammy-Os. Remember, that Hammy-Os will affect the actual game, once CoV comes out. Thus something WILL be done about them.)

[Blue Bolt]

Have you tried using AoE attacks? SR Scrappers can only get so much AoE defense. (From Lucky, Evasion, and Elude.) Your RI has a Def debuff. (Also, since you can use -ACC/-DEF Hammy-Os, you should be able to make it so he can't hit you, and you can hit him...one reason why Hammy-Os are broken, the remove the need to CHOOSE how to slot a power.)

Also, Elude isn't perma anymore...so there's a time when he's vulnerable.

Since he can't hit you, you need only wait until it falls...and take him out. (Thus, you get a kill, he has none...you win.)

ix-nay on the "ell people how to beat BB"-tay... :p

To be fair, my particular AoE defence is on par with my ranged and melee. And depending on my foe, I generally keep on two defences at once. With Atom it was ranged and AoE. But still, he was hitting me enough to make me sweat, and I had to dip in my Elude a couple of times to avoid dying. We couldn't kill each other though, and it ended in a draw

[Xanatos]

...I gave you something that MUST be true...

Not really - I would come back but this discussion is going in circles. hence my last comment you misunderstood.

[vyxzuw]

ix-nay on the "ell people how to beat BB"-tay...

Heh. Didn't say he could defeat you, necessarily. Just HIT you. (Or any SR scrapper for that matter.)

And that's the problem. (In fact, with 6 Hammy-Os in Lucky and Evasion, he STILL has a 10% chance to hit you. 30(1+2-.3)=30(2.7)=81%) (With Hammy-Os Debuffing..it gets even easier.)

Although, that's not exactly a Hammy-O problem, as it is a enhancemnt problem in general. (Def and Res just aren't up to par with the other enhancements.)

But don't worry, a few Hammy-Os in his attacks...and then he'll be able to beat you. (:P)

Not really - I would come back but this discussion is going in circles. hence my last comment you misunderstood.

Ah, the arguement in general, not any specific arguement. A circular arguement in logic terms, is one that proves an assumption, which would be a false proof. Thus my confusion.

(I commented on this thread not going anywhere earlier, and brought up some suggestions on people aggreeing on some ettique that I felt would work. Feel free to comment on that. After all, as I've also said, it doesn't matter what WE think, it's what the DEVS think. So, no point argueing here, where they won't see it, and thus won't read it.)