Dungeons and Dragons Online First Impression

[Powerhelm]

Ok so while on my CoV breather I picked this up.

I was fairly excited at first if nothing else because the graphics looked wicked.

I got in and made my character. I should have known it would be a steep learning curve for non-DnD Pen and Paper (PnP) folks when you actually had to click on a special button in order to customize your stats/skills/feats/etc etc (they're automatically selected for you the instant you finish the very sparse character creation screen)

There's alot to keep track of or maybe I've been spoiled by the comparitively simple CoX experience.

Atleast one player race (Warforged) is fairly discriminated against in game due to their recieving a reduced benefit from typical heal spells. Only the "nukers" (Wizards, Sorcerers) can heal these folks using spells.

People complained about CoX not being solo friendly...I wish that DnD came out sooner. Beyond the initial 4 or 5 quests you're going to have to team. Even quests that have the same level as you are nearly impossible, more often than not, when soloing. I've still got a level 2 mission on my level 3 fighter that I can't do because of the sheer number of enemies that come at you. And a lvl 1 quest I still have because my magical defenses are pretty much non-existant so the last lil' mage gets me all the time.

Maybe since I played around with my stats instead of going with their recommended stats or maybe I'm just really bad at Action-MMOs...but outside of a friendly group it's just not alot of fun. Granted I love grouping and would rather group than solo. I knew this would be a grouping heavy game going in but to be whipped by a quest 1 or more levels below you solo is pretty bad...

Maybe it's just too easy to make a "gimp" character in this game or something...

Or maybe Turbine didn't take into account the human factor in Dungeon Master/Player interaction where the player can suggest any number of things to get out of a situation where their skills might prevent it...I think that is a big flaw with converting a PnP game into an MMO...when it becomes an MMO that Dungeon Master human factor is removed and it just becomes a game of math min/maxing with a dash of chance mixed in for flavor.

[WingedAvenger]

A friend of mine gave me his 10 day trial account CD key to try the game out. I played it for 2-3 days, then got bored with it. Like I've always said: after so many years of EQ and EQ2, I have little interest in starting another fantasy-themed MMORPG.

[D'Arkaine]

I tried it, too.

Boy has CoX spoiled me. The stats screen alone.

Now I purposefully went in without looking at any guides to see how noob friendly the game is. It is not.

I found the same type of issues PH did.

Not the game for me.

[Mega Doomer]

i just got this game and i made a cleric first off since im ALWAYS a healer in every game i play. now i have had no problems what so ever with grouping. in fact... i havent seen anyone in my teams die nor have i died yet and im lvl 4. is it a lack of healers in your party??

now then i do find it a lil hard to find my way around. and the worst part is im stuck in a city, i really wanted open landscapes and the such... but oh well.

[Quakester]

From what I read about it, there's pretty much no world outside of the instanced missions and teaming is mandatory from very near the get go. Soloing isn't dicouraged, it's impossible. Which really blows. Back in most campaigns I ran or played in, a solo character could wreak untold havoc if left unchecked. I know this for a fact cause 9 times out of 10 that character was me. ;)

[Chain Lightning]

I played the beta and I noticed the same thing that I couldn't complete quests that were supposedly set to 'easy'. Now I played the PnP of D&D many, many moons ago, and you ALWAYS played in a group, but the game mechanics were set that way.

In a MMO its impratical to force your players to group (I don't want to hear anyone bringing up the alleged forced grouping in CoH/V because I frankly don't believe its as bad as many people make it out to be).

I then heard that you have to run the same quests three times, from more than one source, each time going up on difficulty in order to reach the max levels. That's just plain laziness on the Turbine dev team if they best way they could come with to advance characters was make them repeat the quests on different difficulty settings.
Either spend more time to make more quests and adventures in the game that increase in difficulty as your character progresses, or shelve the product.

[Powerhelm]

I've run Waterworks (think of it as a 4 quest Taskforce w/o the required group #) atleast 6 times with one character. That seems to be all people wanna do they just go from one of those to the other (about a dozen such things throughout the game) I've run it all but once on Normal (difficulties are Normal, Hard, Elite). I still get a few thousand xp per run so I guess people just run it til there's nothing to it. Also really good loot comes at the end but you can only get one piece out of a 12+ good things.

Cleric's are the most sought after class. I haven't seen many/any Bards though I recently made one I imagine he'll be sought after once I figure out how to play him :-p

I'll probably eBay my account after my 30 days, just gonna grind up and get as high as possible to atleast break even on the whole thing.

[Remianen]

In a MMO its impratical to force your players to group (I don't want to hear anyone bringing up the alleged forced grouping in CoH/V because I frankly don't believe its as bad as many people make it out to be).

Folks who say that don't know wtf they're talking about, really. The "forced grouping" standard was set by EverQuest 1 (and furthered by DAOC's Trials of Atlantis expansion) and hasn't been seen since. Well, until now, that is.

Like I said in another thread, DDO is going to find out the hard way that today's MMO climate doesn't allow for forced grouping. Despite the cachet of their name, they'll find they can't compete with the big dogs on the block and will probably struggle to keep 50k subscribers. Shame really since the game had so much promise that's being squandered by an outdated premise for the core game system.

[Sun-Scarab]

its a hard choice, I barely played COh beta cuz i was stuck in Final Fantasy online. but this D&D Online seems to be cooler that WoW. but compared to fantasy ones, its nice to have your own travel so early unlike FInal fantasy's Chocobo rides (which were getting pricy when i last played.) the one thing that Fantasy games have is that the Worlds there are bigger. tho the Sewer system in COH is kinda masssive too.

[Powerhelm]

DDO doesn't have/need transit because the entire game is instanced. You just run around this 4 part city. Basically think of CoH with only KR, AP, GC an Steel

[Maveric]

http://www.cohguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114951&postcount=13

[Powerhelm]

You make alotta comparisons to PnP.

First of all this game is trying to be too PnP. They're forgetting that players have this thing called ingenuity they could suggest something or try something obsurd in PnP and have it work for them where here it's not an option.

In pnP you can sit around with your buddies eating pizza and talking and interacting. There's just something to be said about the feel of sitting around a table with your friends. Sorta why there are still poker nights even though you can play poker online.

In the world of MMOs you almost HAVE to have soloing atleast be possible.

The first 3-4 quests should be easy for all the classes. Heck to get into the first real part of the city you have to go on 4 quests. One of which is so hard that unless you're a melee class or ina team you will have very much trouble getting past.

Soloing isn't an option in this game. Well, maybe if you build a melee character and set them up one of a few ways, then soloing is temporarily an option...

and the setup for finding a group isn't too great, you can't tell if they're in a group or trying to start one or what.

And also with leveling this slow there needs to be more variety in the starting area. If you're gonna be spending that much time there they could atleast give ya something to look at.

DDO is a soloing extreme where it's not at all possible. On the otherhand we have CoH (thanks to the AV nerf) soloing everything in the game save the taskforces is entirely possible.

[Mega Doomer]

i am one of the few people who always plays a healer, i cant stand soloing! mainly because i cant. this forced grouping thing is welcomed to me.

[Maveric]

inserted responses

You make alotta comparisons to PnP.

Maveric - Ofcourse I did, Turbine paid money to license the name and use the rules, making changes only with WotC's approval. Anyone who has played any computer game with a D&D name and logo knows that it has never been done 100% faithfully. Even Never Winter Nights, while probably the best conversion of the PNP rules still has it's flaws and rule adjustments and changes. ANYONE familar with D&D will already have certain expectations and the regular D&D players will have even higher expectations. These expectations being that since the game bears the D&D name/logo that it will for the most part be as close to D&D rules and restrictions as possible. For example, when I first hear DDO was coming out, I automatically expected it's magic system: spell preparation and memorization prior to casting, otherwise known as the Vancian magic system to be implemented. If you read the DDO forums, you will find that majority of the people want the game to be more like PnP because it's got the D&D logo and name. Most of the people I have grouped up with are 20-40 years of age, who have played D&D, AD&D, 2nd Edition and or 3.0 & 3.5 and they also mention constantly how the game should be more like PnP and less like Everquest or WoW. Personally speaking as I said in my linked post, some things that they did differently I liked and some I didn't, some rules I wish that would have implemented but didn't and some I would have implemented differently. I just consider all of Turbine's changes "House Rules". Having played under multiple Dungeon Masters over 12 years, I have learned that every DM has his or her own interpretation of the rules and their own special options/restrictions.

First of all this game is trying to be too PnP. They're forgetting that players have this thing called ingenuity they could suggest something or try something obsurd in PnP and have it work for them where here it's not an option.

Maveric - This is a bad thing? see above response. ummm how exactly would making it less like pnp and more like other MMOs allow players to use ingenuity. To be one hundred % honest. There are numerous adventure quests in the game where the only adventure objective to complete the mission is to find something or slay the boss at the end. And guess what 9 out of 10 of you MMO players out there will slay every creature in the dungeon even though it's not necessary. why? because that what the other MMOs do. In DDO you can (and I have obtained over 100,000 gp because of this) think of out-of-the-box methods to complete the quest.

A prime example is of the House K beholder quest. That quest is hellacious. Powerfull undead constantly attack you from the moment you start until you reach the final entrance to the beholder's lair. There are only like 2 shrines and both are well guarded by mobs. By the time you get to the beholder lair, you are running on empty (little Hit points and spell points). Once unlocking the gate, you have to fight off several nasty undead skeleton guardians that regenerate health, while the beholder unleashes deathrays, etc at your group. Guess what the only mission objective is to complete this quest? Yeah, it's kill the beholder.

This is DDO, not like other MMO's, so we got creative. We enter the adventure, cast invisibility and haste and run to the beholder's lair bypassing all the monsters and unecessary damage, we unlock the gate and cast control undead on the skeleton guardians. Skeleton guardians kill the beholder. quest completed. Time completed 6 minutes, 8,000 XP granted, exit and get your reward choice of one of several 8,000 - 32,000 gold piece worth magic items. Even after doing the quest 44 times the and the repeat penalty only netting us 0-200 xp per completion the rewards were well worth the 6 minutes.

and yes they nerfed the adventure... they made alot of the optionals required to complte the mission. they want players to use ingenuity but not THAT much ingenuity...

another adventure there was this room that either spawned a hill giant chef (as in cook) and a treasure chest or the room might spawn a bunch of oozes (which deal alot of damage to equipment and possible break your items making them useless until repaired, also they split into new additional oozes if you attack with a piercing ot slashing weapon). On this particular quest, killing the oozes is not required and simply running to the nearby ladder totally avoids the oozes. guess what most of the groups I adventure with do. yeah, they attack the oozes and break their equipment and take a bunch of unecessary damage. Why? because that's what they would do in other MMO's. if it moves, kill it, get XP.

so basically I say your exactly wrong, making DDO more like the PNP and less like other MMOs gives us players more changes to use ingenuity that the standard go fight a rabbit get 5 xp, wash rinse repeat until I am 50th level.

In pnP you can sit around with your buddies eating pizza and talking and interacting. There's just something to be said about the feel of sitting around a table with your friends. Sorta why there are still poker nights even though you can play poker online.

Maveric - What does that have to do with "this game is trying to be too PnP." The developers have stated that their goal was to make a massively mutliplayer online role playing game being as faithful to the source material as possible with the approval of WotC.

In the world of MMOs you almost HAVE to have soloing atleast be possible.

Maveric - your opinion. Soloing wasn't possible beyond the early levels in CoH and it made a ****load of money and is still raking it in...

The first 3-4 quests should be easy for all the classes. Heck to get into the first real part of the city you have to go on 4 quests. One of which is so hard that unless you're a melee class or ina team you will have very much trouble getting past..

Maveric - don't know what game YOU are playing but you only have to do 2 easy quests (one for the Tavern boss, mandatory solo quest, and one for Lord Goodblade, intended for solo but grouping optional, to get into the main harbor area mainly for levels 1-3 (equivilant of 1-12 in other MMOs). Later, you only have to do 2 easy quests and yes, you will need a group (waterworks 1 and 2) to get into the marketplace/house zones mainly for levels 3-8 (equivalant to 12-32 in other MMOS)

Soloing isn't an option in this game. Well, maybe if you build a melee character and set them up one of a few ways, then soloing is temporarily an option....

Maveric: #1 The D&D name and logo infers that this is a group game. #2 - the developer's intended on making the game focused on teamplay and stated so numerous times during the developement and in their advertising.

I have a rogue who is built around using stealth and a heavy repeating crossbow and I consistantly out-damage and get the most kills of majority of the groups I adventure with. melee is by far not the best soloing class, especially in an environment where restoring health (hitpoints) is extremely limite. The Cleric has been overwhemingly agreed as the best soloing template. Check out the forums for pages and pages dedicated to the soloing topic and why cleric is the undisputed soloing champion. Having said that, the game is not designed for soloing thus the point is moot. What good is barely surviving the mission if you have to leave half of it undone bcause you didn't have a mage to unlock a magic rune locked door or a rogue to detect and disarm the trap protecting the chest with the awesome loot you had to leave behind or the fighter who could have easily slayed 20 kobolds that you had to bypass because it would have risked too much unnecessary damage before getting to the final boss/objective, etc... i digress...

and the setup for finding a group isn't too great, you can't tell if they're in a group or trying to start one or what.

Maveric - what are you smoking? I have NEVER seen a better system for finding a groups or players in any other MMO! if you want to look for a group to join, click on the grouping tab and check the LFG (looking for group) box. This places a grouping symbol over your character's head which signifies to anyone visually looking at your character's avatar that you are wanting to join a group. Your name is also added to the "Players list" along with an optional brief comment. Common comment examples: Roleplayers only, looking for XP, looking for loot, want to do market place adventures only, only have time for a short or medium length adventure, etc. Even better than this is the ability to look at the groups looking for other players list. This list has a listing of all the leaders of a group as well as the type of characters they are looking for, and an optional message usually describing which adventure the group wants to do. if you see a group you might be interested in, highlight the group and click the join button. It will send a join request to the party leader and they can accept ot deny your request. Don't see a group you want to join? Use the LFM (looking for more) option to start your own group with your own restrictions and let others send you requests. Then there is the old standby, The Players List. This list compiles the name of every player online for your server. You can arrange the names by LFG, class, level, etc. Send a request to those you want to join your party, common courtesy dictates that you send a tell first, some people hate blind invites especially those who play clerics (the highest-in-demand class desired for a group). They have numerous other features but I digress. The only problem I have ever noticed with grouping is that the players (not the system) always want to be a follower/ companion/ compadre but rarely want to be the party leader.

And also with leveling this slow there needs to be more variety in the starting area. If you're gonna be spending that much time there they could atleast give ya something to look at.

Maveric - i agree 100%

DDO is a soloing extreme where it's not at all possible. On the otherhand we have CoH (thanks to the AV nerf) soloing everything in the game save the taskforces is entirely possible.

Maveric - I've heard DDO will be implementing more raid adventures as well, adventures that more than one player can enter without being in a group but still have to overcome common goal.

soloing is now viable in CoH?! cool, hopefully they will introduce some new powers and archtypes as well.

Do me a favor. Next time you play DDO and enter a mission, look at the mission objective and think about it. use some of that ingenuity, you don't always have to hack and slash your way to the objective. In DDO you don't get XP for every mob you kill. you get XP for completing and adventure and a little bonus xp for any optional objective you may accomplish along the way.

[Powerhelm]

First of all this game is trying to be too PnP. They're forgetting that players have this thing called ingenuity they could suggest something or try something obsurd in PnP and have it work for them where here it's not an option.

Maveric - This is a bad thing? see above response


Yes it is a bad thing. You don't have a human dungeon master in D&D-O following you around and tailoring the game to you. It's a static difficulty there is no tailoring it to certain players or certain stories. How many dungeon masters have you played with that killed everyone in a group on the first quest?

In the world of MMOs you almost HAVE to have soloing atleast be possible.

Maveric - your opinion. Soloing wasn't possible beyond the early levels in CoH and it made a ****load of money and is still raking it in...

Yeah CoH is pretty unsoloable beyond level 20 or so. Also pretty unsoloable if you aren't a tank, blaster, brute, stalker, scrapper etc...and pretty unsoloable late game if your a defender...For most every Powerset and AT the game is soloable sometimes very slowly soloable but soloable just the same. And when it first launched the game was much more soloable than now infact only in the last 8 months or so has it become even somewhat difficult to solo (atleast as anything other than a defender or a pre-pets controller).

DDO is unsoloable off the boat. I barely got out of the training dungeons with my rogue and wizard. And just to make sure it wasn't just the way I spent the points I even tried using their default recommended points and still the same infact I died once in one of the training dungeons.

The first 3-4 quests should be easy for all the classes. Heck to get into the first real part of the city you have to go on 4 quests. One of which is so hard that unless you're a melee class or ina team you will have very much trouble getting past..

Maveric - don't know what game YOU are playing but you only have to do 2 easy quests (one for the Tavern boss, mandatory solo quest, and one for Lord Goodblade, intended for solo but grouping optional, to get into the main harbor area mainly for levels 1-3 (equivilant of 1-12 in other MMOs). Later, you only have to do 2 easy quests and yes, you will need a group (waterworks 1 and 2) to get into the marketplace/house zones mainly for levels 3-8 (equivalant to 12-32 in other MMOS)

2 "quests" the first one is the same dungeon the second one is 3 different dungeons I count each dungeon as a quest within the greater "quest" since most of the non-marked on the map "quests" are actually only one mission.

just to get into the main harbor area try soloing that skeleton in the final room of the dagger quest as a solo anything but Fighter/Barbarian.

And every group you get into up to level 3 or 4 wants to do Waterworks. And saying each rank equates a level in other MMOs is something I don't agree with. Those ranks garner you nothing but action points which after the first level or two you won't spend more than one of if that for the next couple levels. calling ranks the equivalant of levels makes them sound like you actually progress when you acheive them which you don't, til you acheive 4 of them. Only then so you get another batch of skill points or a feat or so on in addition to more HP/SP.

And if a level 5 Fighter can't do a level 1 quest solo (and using your equivalency of ranks to levels in traditional MMOs) that's like saying a level 20 can't do a level 1-4 quest...

I have a rogue who is built around using stealth and a heavy repeating crossbow and I consistantly out-damage and get the most kills of majority of the groups I adventure with. melee is by far not the best soloing class, especially in an environment where restoring health (hitpoints) is extremely limite. The Cleric has been overwhemingly agreed as the best soloing template. Check out the forums for pages and pages dedicated to the soloing topic and why cleric is the undisputed soloing champion. Having said that, the game is not designed for soloing thus the point is moot. What good is barely surviving the mission if you have to leave half of it undone bcause you didn't have a mage to unlock a magic rune locked door or a rogue to detect and disarm the trap protecting the chest with the awesome loot you had to leave behind or the fighter who could have easily slayed 20 kobolds that you had to bypass because it would have risked too much unnecessary damage before getting to the final boss/objective, etc... i digress...

For a game not designed for soloing you seem to have plenty of evidence talking about the best soloing class, clerics, which also have many melee combat skills and could just as easily be refered to as healing fighters.

and the setup for finding a group isn't too great, you can't tell if they're in a group or trying to start one or what.

Maveric - what are you smoking? I have NEVER seen a better system for finding a groups or players in any other MMO! if you want to look for a group to join, click on the grouping tab and check the LFG (looking for group) box. This places a grouping symbol over your character's head which signifies to anyone visually looking at your character's avatar that you are wanting to join a group.

very good for anyone in the vicinity which unless you're in a tavern or near trainers is usualy no more than one or two people if that.


Your name is also added to the "Players list" along with an optional brief comment. Common comment examples: Roleplayers only, looking for XP, looking for loot, want to do market place adventures only, only have time for a short or medium length adventure, etc. Even better than this is the ability to look at the groups looking for other players list. This list has a listing of all the leaders of a group as well as the type of characters they are looking for, and an optional message usually describing which adventure the group wants to do. if you see a group you might be interested in, highlight the group and click the join button.

Whatever server you're on lemme know and I'll switch to it. At any given time the groups LFM screen shows about 10 level 1 groups and maybe 2 level 3 and a level 6 or 7 and that's it. Is that everyone in that instance? That section of the city? that server? include groups already in instances? Is there a way to even tell these things?

[/quote] It will send a join request to the party leader and they can accept ot deny your request. Don't see a group you want to join? Use the LFM (looking for more) option to start your own group with your own restrictions and let others send you requests. Then there is the old standby, The Players List. This list compiles the name of every player online for your server. You can arrange the names by LFG, class, level, etc. Send a request to those you want to join your party, common courtesy dictates that you send a tell first, some people hate blind invites especially those who play clerics (the highest-in-demand class desired for a group). They have numerous other features but I digress. The only problem I have ever noticed with grouping is that the players (not the system) always want to be a follower/ companion/ compadre but rarely want to be the party leader.

Well the grouping system in my opinion isn't that great. Obviously you think differently. I'm just used to CoH and so not a fan of their interface. I should have clarified that it was the interface and not the system itself that I wasn't a fan of.

Maveric - I've heard DDO will be implementing more raid adventures as well, adventures that more than one player can enter without being in a group but still have to overcome common goal.

Yes I believe that's true.

However I have more gripes.

DDO when walking around town it is entirely possible to die by making a wrong turn off a high spot. One thing CoH does very well is that you can't kill yourself by jumping off a fence that is a tad too high...