Justice Avengers no more [Archive] - City of Heroes Forums

Masked Revenger

05-08-2005, 12:42 PM

:mad:

So, yesterday, I got this in my e-mail. (Actually, what I got was the second notice, saying the issue was resolved, but this was included in it).

The Super Group listed below was recently reported to have a name that violates the USER AGREEMENT (EULA) Section 4f and is not allowed to be used. We are sending you this notice to provide you an opportunity to correct this. In an effort to limit the interruption of your game play as much as possible, a temporary name was assigned to the your Super Group listed below.

Account:BlanchPrez
Super Group Leader Name:Captain Noble
Old Super Group Name:Justice Avengers
New Super Group Name:genericsg3399
Intellectual Property:Justice League / The Avengers
Server:Victory

Man, I can't believe that. There's a freaking BADGE that's called Justice Avenger, it's where I got the name from in the first place! Grrrr...

Any chance I can protest this? My first notification of this was the second e-mail they send out, saying it's resolved because I never contacted them.

Man...

Chris

Krypto

05-08-2005, 01:38 PM

Tough luck man. You should've done it sooner.

Sounds like you'd have gotten your SG name back if you explained to them about everything.

Charon

05-08-2005, 01:56 PM

Masked Revenger

05-08-2005, 02:32 PM

Email them back and explain your situation and state your case. This is entirely unjustified seeing as there is a badge called "Justice Avenger." It makes very little sense. They may let you have the SG name back. I doubt it, but they may.

Well, I did just this. I'll be crossing my fingers, but I also doubt anything will come of it.

Chris

Masked Revenger

05-08-2005, 03:30 PM

Well, here's the response I got back.

The SG name will not be approved based on TM violations. If you would like to submit alternate names for an attempted renaming, please provide 3 acceptable alternate names in your reply.
Thanks!

So, no chance of getting the name back. :cry:

Ah, well, I submitted three new names, let's hope no one bitches about them.

Name ideas:

1. Defenders of Freedom
2. The League of Heroes
3. Justice Defenders

Chris

Xanatos

05-08-2005, 03:37 PM

BvS

05-08-2005, 03:43 PM

And spell 'oversight' properly.

coldcut

05-08-2005, 03:45 PM

You know, CuppaJo posted an e-mail for their intellectual property rights section awhile back. I think it's slipped down out of the dev digest, but you might be able to find it wih a good search.

This is sort of an important precedent.

Krypto

05-08-2005, 03:48 PM

Send them a reply demanding to talk to a top-tier GM - chances are you're with a lowbie looking to fill his quota. Top tier GM's are far more lenient i've found. When you talk to them ask why you are unable to have the name for a supergroup - when there is a badge with that very name in the game. Also inform them that the name "Justice Avengers" is not copywritten by any of the aforementioned companies (DC/Marvel) and that it is an oversite on Cryptics behalf to have assumed it is.

Xanatos is correct. I'm going through the same thing with Krypto's name.

They are "escalating" my petition to a Senior Customer Service Representative, so I'm hoping something might happen there.

But yeah, if you expect any hopes of having it restored to normal, it's with one of the higer-ups, not the lowbies. :p

Masked Revenger

05-08-2005, 03:50 PM

Send them a reply demanding to talk to a top-tier GM - chances are you're with a lowbie looking to fill his quota. Top tier GM's are far more lenient i've found. When you talk to them ask why you are unable to have the name for a supergroup - when there is a badge with that very name in the game. Also inform them that the name "Justice Avengers" is not copywritten by any of the aforementioned companies (DC/Marvel) and that it is an oversite on Cryptics behalf to have assumed it is.

Is that what I say, "Let me talk to a Top-Tier-GM about this?"

I'm willing to do this, I really want that team name back, but I've never delt with GM's in any MMO's before, so any advice or help here is good. :)

Chris

Krypto

05-08-2005, 03:56 PM

Did you not just read what he said, Krypto? He didn't get any notice before that email. All he got was the second, "Resolved" email that he just quoted.

Email them back and explain your situation and state your case. This is entirely unjustified seeing as there is a badge called "Justice Avenger." It makes very little sense. They may let you have the SG name back. I doubt it, but they may.

I was under the impression that he had already gotten one, but didn't respond to it in time.

Meh, it's entirely possible he didn't get one if he's not the SG leader. I don't know, so... :P

Masked Revenger

05-08-2005, 03:59 PM

I was under the impression that he had already gotten one, but didn't respond to it in time.

Meh, it's entirely possible he didn't get one if he's not the SG leader. I don't know, so... :P

No, I am the SG leader, but I never got the first e-mail.

Chris

Krypto

05-08-2005, 04:02 PM

No, I am the SG leader, but I never got the first e-mail.

Chris

Hmm, that's weird then. O_o

Xanatos

05-08-2005, 04:08 PM

And spell 'oversight' properly.

*correctly

Just tell the lowbie you want to speak to a senior GM about this issue as the change will have a negative impact on your gameplay. You are a paying customer after all, and if you want to talk to 'the manager' than it's completely within your rights.

BvS

05-08-2005, 04:21 PM

*correctly

::sigh::
I wasn't 'correcting' you. I was illustrating that, since all communication will be in print form, a prejudice might come into play if MR doesn't use the proper spelling of the word.

I could have just as easily used any of these synonyms - becoming, befitting, comely, conforming, correct, de rigueur, decent, decorous, demure, genteel, gentlemanly, in line, kosher, ladylike, moral, nice, polite, precise, priggish, prim, prissy, prudish, punctilious, puritanical, refined, respectable, right, seemly, solid, square, stone, straight, straight-laced, stuffy.

'Justice Avengers' is an infringement on Cryptic's own copyrighted material, since it's the name of one of their badges, as opposed to being an infringement of DC/Marvel's property.

Kinetix

05-08-2005, 04:23 PM

Krypto=Kryptonite?

Is that what their problem is?

Masked Revenger

05-08-2005, 04:25 PM

'Justice Avengers' is an infringement on Cryptic's own copyrighted material, since it's the name of one of their badges, as opposed to being an infringement of DC/Marvel's property.

If this is what they were telling me, this would be fine. However, the e-mail I quoted in the first post clearly says that it's infringing on the Justice League and the Avengers.

And Kin, Krypto is the name of Superman's dog.

Chris

Randomus

05-08-2005, 04:26 PM

Krypto = Superman's Dog, Kinetix. Still stupid.

BvS

05-08-2005, 04:28 PM

If this is what they were telling me, this would be fine. However, the e-mail I quoted in the first post clearly says that it's infringing on the Justice League and the Avengers.

Then there is no problem.
It's their game and they don't want you to have that SG name. That's pretty much the end of it.

Sux though.

Masked Revenger

05-08-2005, 04:32 PM

Then there is no problem.
It's their game and they don't want you to have that SG name. That's pretty much the end of it.

Sux though.

Its not over just yet. If I truly can't get the name back, then fine, I'll live with it. It's not worth quitting over, IMO. However, I will continue to fight it for now, and see if it really is the end of it.

Chris

coldcut

05-08-2005, 04:35 PM

Then there is no problem.
It's their game and they don't want you to have that SG name. That's pretty much the end of it.

Sux though.

I would really hate that to be the end of it. Problem here is that it sets a really horrible precedent for other characters. Are we not able to use the word "Storm" or "Beast" in conjunction with other words? How about heros that just sound like existing names and don't have anything to do with the mainstream characters?

The names in COH are already bad enough without eliminating half of the English language.

WingedAvenger

05-08-2005, 04:37 PM

If this is what they were telling me, this would be fine. However, the e-mail I quoted in the first post clearly says that it's infringing on the Justice League and the Avengers.
That's totally screwed up logic. They're combining two totally separate pieces of IP into something else and telling you it's a violation? Rediculous.

Just because someone owns a particular copyrighted name like "Justice League" doesn't mean they can claim violation on any name that uses the word "Justice" or "League". If it's a clearly different name, like "Alpha League", that's not an infringement. (Uh-oh, I just created a group with the word "Alpha". I hope Marvel doesn't sue me!)

ThunderMace

05-08-2005, 05:32 PM

What kind of trouble are you having, Krypto? have you been sent something?

And Revenger, I worry that if they are going to start messing will almalgam names I could be hit because of SuperAmerican.

Remianen

05-09-2005, 01:44 PM

It would appear to me that the recent crackdowns on names have more to do with Cryptic/NCSoft’s legal departments than any kind of logic. They stared down the beast and made it blink (or flinch) so now they’re trying to eliminate any chance for the beast to mount a counterattack. Also, wasn’t one of the terms of Cryptic’s “win” that they would have to enact stricter enforcement of rules to protect Marvel (and by proxy, DC and Image and Dark Horse and…) IP?

The Krypto thing I can see since, obscure reference or not, there are future projects planned to use that property. With the new Superman movie (planned to be a franchise and spawn sequels like it did previously), Krypto very well could make an appearance there.

The Justice Avengers thing is an intent issue, which is hard to prove or disprove. If the intent of MR was to create an SG using part of 2 copyrighted names, that could be a violation (if the rules are strictly and/or conservatively enforced). Then again, if I thought about what I would do if I found Patricia Velasquez or Lauren Jackson in my bed, I could be charged with a whole slew of crimes (moral, if not legal) so it could go either way. But if there’s a badge ingame with that name, Cryptic could pull the “our copyright” card and that n00b GM could’ve just cited the wrong reference. For the same reason you can’t make a character named Statesman or the like, they could exercise their right to block the useage of ingame references of any kind.

But then again, BvS is right. It’s not a nice thing to do or think about (SOE uses this policy a lot, which should tell you how unsavory it is), but in the end, if Cryptic says they don’t want costumes using blue (or names using certain words or consonants or syllables), guess what? :(

Akamaz

05-09-2005, 03:29 PM

heh nevermind future projects with Krypto.. there's an animated tv show that currently exists on Cartoon Network, as shown Here (http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_shows/krypto/)

Blackbat

05-09-2005, 03:32 PM

Krypto = Superman's Dog, Kinetix. Still stupid.

Eh, I saw that one coming.

coldcut

05-09-2005, 03:44 PM

heh nevermind future projects with Krypto.. there's an animated tv show that currently exists on Cartoon Network, as shown Here (http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_shows/krypto/)

A really, really horrible animated tv show.

Masked Revenger

05-09-2005, 03:57 PM

The Justice Avengers thing is an intent issue, which is hard to prove or disprove. If the intent of MR was to create an SG using part of 2 copyrighted names, that could be a violation (if the rules are strictly and/or conservatively enforced). Then again, if I thought about what I would do if I found Patricia Velasquez or Lauren Jackson in my bed, I could be charged with a whole slew of crimes (moral, if not legal) so it could go either way. But if there’s a badge ingame with that name, Cryptic could pull the “our copyright” card and that n00b GM could’ve just cited the wrong reference. For the same reason you can’t make a character named Statesman or the like, they could exercise their right to block the useage of ingame references of any kind.

Yeah, except that I wasn't trying to use those two names. I saw the badge, Justice Avenger, thought it sounded cool and would make a great name for a team, and so when I hit 10 with Captain Noble, formed the Justice Avengers. It was supposed to be a team of Silver Age style characters.

Chris

Masked Revenger

05-09-2005, 04:01 PM

A really, really horrible animated tv show.

OMG, what the hell is THAT? Ace, the bathound? Where's a barfing smiley?

Chris

Plasma Wisp

05-09-2005, 04:05 PM

Here's hopinh HAL Labs don't go crazy like DC/Marvel on names. If they did, I'm boned.

BvS

05-09-2005, 04:10 PM

OMG, what the hell is THAT? Ace, the bathound? Where's a barfing smiley?

Chris

Yeah. They need Ace to constantly pull Krypto's tail out of trouble...

Sound familiar? ;)

Dynamo-Man

05-09-2005, 04:28 PM

The problem with the JA issue is that using thw ords does not make it a violation. You can't copyright words and names, only resemblences. However, if the members of the JA were to resemble any known DC/Marvel characters, the issue would be questionable. But, as you can see on our page, none of our characters resemble any of the characters (at least any of the main characters).

I think it's a bunch of ****, and no matter what the group is called in game, we will always call ourselves The Justice Avengers. The website will remain, and our battle-cries and whatnot will always state Justice Avengers.

Screw the man!!!

Xanatos

05-09-2005, 04:37 PM

In light of this thread:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Dev&Number=2809410&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

...I suggest you contact Cuppajo if the Upper tier GMs don't give you the name back.

Yin

05-09-2005, 08:08 PM

Seems as if they're on some other BS. Email them back explaining everything like everyone has been stating, especially a badge they created called the Justice Avenger as well. Seems as if they've gotten more picky about things ever since the Marvel fiasco.

Masked Revenger

05-09-2005, 08:17 PM

I've e-mailed them and asked to be esclated to an upper tier GM. I haven't received a response as of yet.

Chris

D'Arkaine

05-09-2005, 08:28 PM

In support of your efforts, Angrytownsman will proudly wear the justice avenger badge.

(exploration badge located in perez park in a fountain in hellion territory near the skyway entrance)

Lawmaker

05-09-2005, 10:28 PM

As Xanatos said, I'd also PM Cuppajo on the main boards, just to ask her opinion and see what she thinks... It never hurts to get a "biggie" involved... :)

I also think that it's likely your change in team name is a result of a overzealous "name-police" player and as as result, the GMs felt it better to err on the side of caution, rather than risk another "sort-of-maybe-potential-problem-with-Marvel" issue.

Either way, I hope the best for you and the JA.

inkblaster

05-09-2005, 10:52 PM

In support of your efforts, Angrytownsman will proudly wear the justice avenger badge.

(exploration badge located in perez park in a fountain in hellion territory near the skyway entrance)

Now there's an idea, just have all the members wear this badge, and change the supergroup name to "See Badge".

Sable Phoenix

05-10-2005, 06:06 AM

I hope you can get in contact with CuppaJo and get that name back. It's ridiculous to think you could even be infringing on two copyrights simultaneously. The word "League" isn't even there... does any supergroup with the word "Justice" in it count as infringement? Ridiculous.

Seems the GMs are getting a little more trigger-happy than usual lately. Call me cynical, but the way things are going I'm not surprised.

Blue Bolt

05-10-2005, 06:45 AM

*Hopes Cryptic never notices this (http://home.comcast.net/~wanolan/41one1.html)*

But then again, someone can sue them for ripping off the 5th Column from this comic :p

D'Arkaine

05-10-2005, 03:55 PM

I PMed CuppaJo about the person to contact on names and she gave me the following email address - iprights@plaync.com . I am a tad concerned over a character i have - even tho there is no trademark or videogame copyright for him. I mean they changed Bastion because he was some Marvel char (never heard of him myself).

I mean if you think about it ... what names have not been used for something?

Kurai Inago

05-10-2005, 06:58 PM

You know what I noticed that makes this stranger? One of the winning film festival movies was done by an SG called the Justice Avengers...... Doubt they got their name changed.....

MaligneFamily

05-10-2005, 07:29 PM

Uh oh... Exodus is next... (looked inside of Marvel Encyclopedia)

Amoeba Man

05-10-2005, 07:32 PM

Uh oh... Exodus is next... (looked inside of Marvel Encyclopedia)Marvel better hurry up and sue you before the Bible gets wind of that name.

Masked Revenger

05-10-2005, 07:49 PM

Okay, still no response from the GM's after saying I was escilated, so I've PMed Cuppajo as well as the email provied by D'Arkaine (Thanks for that).

Let's hope this works.

Chris

Charon

05-10-2005, 07:52 PM

Uh oh... Exodus is next... (looked inside of Marvel Encyclopedia)

It's only a matter of time. If Marvel don't take issue, you can bet your ass God will.

EDIT: Bah. You think of a witty pun, and a single cell organism got there first. ....Razzafrazzin'....

Tsarmina

05-10-2005, 07:54 PM

Okay, still no response from the GM's after saying I was escilated, so I've PMed Cuppajo as well as the email provied by D'Arkaine (Thanks for that).

Let's hope this works.

Chris
*crosses fingers*

*crosses eyes for good measure* :chuckle:

Masked Revenger

05-10-2005, 07:56 PM

Wow, Cuppajo's fast. Here's the response I got.

Unfortunately I don't have much leverage in these things - I would send an email to iprights@plaync.com - they are the lawyers and such and can review it independently and give you the highest level of review - of course the caveat to this is - what they say is the final word.

I hope you get it resolved!!

CJ

Chris

BvS

05-10-2005, 08:29 PM

So, there's hope for The Extraordinary Legion of Super Alien Defender Turtle Corps Incredible Friends yet!

Good luck :)

The Widowed

05-10-2005, 09:32 PM

My understanding of the whole legality which got Marvel's case thrown out of court was that Marvel, DC or any other comic book publisher can't trademark a word alone, only the exact image (or the image and name) of a particular character.

If you name your Hero "Wolverine" and give him a certain X-Man's blue-and-yellow costume, claws and regeneration, then you're infringing.

If you name your Hero "Wolverine" and he's an 8' tall red robot with horns, glowing eyes, a broadsword and invulnerability, then Marvel can't do a thing to you.

If your supergroup is "The Justice League of America" and it has a Superman, a Batman, a Wonder Woman, a Flash...that's infringement.

If your supergroup is "The Justice League of America" and its only three members are Captain Nuclear, the Spaz and Flexo Extendo, that's not infringement.

Someone needs to explain this to CuppaJo, the GM's and the rest of Cryptic's staff. You cannot trademark a character's name alone; You can only trademark the character's image and the associated name as well. It's a similar principle to fragrances: You can't trademark the formula for Giorgio, because the specific scent of the perfume or cologne depends partly on the person's biochemistry, and you can't trademark that. But you can trademark Giorgio's bottle and packaging design; The name and the scent just happen to be along for the litigative ride.

Most of my legal know-how stems from my real-estate-related job and the lawyers I associate with, but that little tiny bit of trademark law knowledge comes from when I was peddling cheap knock-off perfumes and colognes on a sidewalk, almost ten years ago.

That short-lived job remains a strong contender for the "Worst Month of My Life" award. But most learning experiences do suck in one way or another. :grr:

Akamaz

05-10-2005, 09:42 PM

you actually sold that stuff widdy? when i was told that we'd be selling it on the streets and such i walked right out.

Quakester

05-10-2005, 09:43 PM

From what little I know, Wids is right. The name could be identical to a well known character (or group) but if the image is different, then it doesn't matter.

Now if the image IS the same (or very similar) then they have issues. Marvel did prove that point some time ago against Image, I believe. Image was releasing a star-spangled shield carrying hero and Marvel was able to prevent any depictions of him throwing the shield as an offensive weapon.

Jade_Dragon

05-10-2005, 10:03 PM

Well, the unfortunate thing is that even though you can create a hero named "Wolverine", make him look completely different from Wolverine, and give him totally different powers, Marvel can argue that you are trying to create CONFUSION with your hero. That is, you are using the Marvel trademarked name to attract attention, which in many cases is actually going to be true. Quite frankly, if your intention is to use the Marvel name, as a provocation, then you should not be surprised when you provoke reaction.

NCSoft basically has to protect the MORE FAMOUS Marvel/DC names, because otherwise they could be found to be contributing to the use. That's what Marvel accused them of. Even though legally speaking Marvel can't claim that a hero named "Wolverine" violates their copyright, NCSoft has to prevent it anyway, basically because the name is so well known. They can't give the IMPRESSION of supporting copyright violation.

Krypto is a tougher matter, because he's basically a secondary character, and possibly not as well known. You can't even create a dog character, so there is no way Krypto could be the name of a character that violated copyright anyway. However, Krypto also follows logically from "Krypton" and "Kryptonite", and Krypto's slogan is close enough to Superman's that if his background is that close, the GMs might have reason to worry. So while on the one hand I think it's a bit excessive to change someone's name because it's the name of a super-dog, if they brought the background into it, I can see it.

I said the same about Horndog. I don't like it, but at least I can understand.

Justice Avengers, though, now, with that I start to worry. What if I decide to name my hero "Flash Lantern" or "Wonder Bat"? Can I actually get accused of copyright infringement for combining two unrelated names? What if my hero's real name is "Bruce" or "Wayne"? Not "Bruce Wayne", but any part of that. Is Super-<anything> an illegal name?

If the GMs ever bring up that "Blue Diamond" was the name of a hero previously, I'm going to be mad, because I can establish that I was using the name long before I heard of Marvel's Blue Diamond. But I'm more worried that even a part of a famous name like "Captain" or "America" is going to set off the alarm bells. That will effect far more people, who likely will never have even intended to use a reference to the original heroes. And even Justice Avengers sounds like a good attempt to come up with a group name that pays tribute to DC and Marvel, without ripping off from them.

Lawmaker

05-10-2005, 11:01 PM

Both Wid and Jade dragon are partially correct. There is a difference between "technically" and "practically"

and in cases like this with the Marvel lawsuit and all, the GMs still tend to make "safe" decisions, then leave it to the lawyers to deal with the technicalities... (hence they have an entire department for IP Rights). I cannot blame them for being cautious, nor can I blame players for getting aggrivated, but for now all we can do is cross our fingers and hope the IP folks say it's ok.

I would Laugh (or cry) if in issue 5 the "Justice Avenger" badge is changed to something else...

BvS

05-10-2005, 11:07 PM

(Not going to quote Wid's post. I agree with it. Refer to it if you need to)

In addition, Marvel really screwed themselves by bringing in, as evidence, examples of how they were easily able to make ingame versions of some of their own bread-and-butter characters.

I wish I'd been there to see their faces when Cryptic's legal folks pointed out that Marvel had to violate the EULA they'd agreed to (electronically signed) in order to access the character creation system to begin with.

I would Laugh (or cry) if in issue 5 the "Justice Avenger" badge is changed to something else...

How about 'Avenger of Justice'? ;)

inkblaster

05-11-2005, 01:09 AM

I think they may be going for the name thing because there is a chance with Icons, that you can get the name, and have the look, with a totally different bakc story.

You get the old report e-mail, and then make a quick hop over to Icons and say no fair.

Not saying this is really possible with Krypto, but it could be rp'd that red kryptonite changed you into a human, or some such nonsense.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Justice Avenger badge is changed, they changed Bastion's name after all, and Grendel never saw the light of day, he's Atta now.

There may also be a certain level of professional courtesy, it's because of the comic genre that this game was able to be created.

I can see it being in Cryptic's style at least(not NCSoft), to err on the side of the comic industry as far as how much they let folks get away with.

The Widowed

05-11-2005, 01:24 AM

you actually sold that stuff widdy? when i was told that we'd be selling it on the streets and such i walked right out.
I know, I know...it wasn't the brightest decision I ever made. I and the rest of the peddler posse even got run out of St. Louis' Archway Park downtown by a bunch of policemen on horseback. That was my biggest clue that the job just wasn't going to work out for me. :(

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Justice Avenger badge is changed, they changed Bastion's name after all, and Grendel never saw the light of day, he's Atta now.
I thought that the official story was that Atta beat Grendel for rulership over the trolls, and Grendel's Gulch is the formerly level site where the battle took place. Or is that just the whitewash version? :eyebrow:

Sable Phoenix

05-11-2005, 01:33 AM

I thought that the official story was that Atta beat Grendel for rulership over the trolls, and Grendel's Gulch is the formerly level site where the battle took place. Or is that just the whitewash version? :eyebrow:

I've never heard that one. As far as I know they just up and changed it with no explanation, just like Bastion to Citadel (another dumb change). It'd be nice if they made the story elements more easily accessible.

Anyway. Go Masked Revenger, get that name back! Down with corporate stupidity and litigation!

Kurai Inago

05-11-2005, 03:08 AM

Well actually there's a badge called "Seeker of Monsters" It explains that shortly after "The Hollowing" Atta bested Grendel in a battle for the leadership of the Trolls.

AfterglowNoMore

05-11-2005, 04:18 AM

coldcut

05-11-2005, 04:21 AM

Seeing as the name Grendel is over a thousand years old, I suspect it's trademark has expired.

Poison

05-11-2005, 06:31 AM

Create a character named Thor or Hercules and they'll tell you something about expired copyrights... :rolleyes:

MR, should you find out that they play stubborn, or agree and say "hell, you're right, we'll change the badge as well", I like the Avengers of Justice suggestion.

Gaia

05-11-2005, 07:10 AM

Hell, if MR gets screwed on this one, The Defenders and the Justice Force better watch out as well. Because it will only be a matter of time before some overzealous name nazi reports them for this type of crappy baseless "violation".

I can think of a couple of my teams that I belong to that could come into question. Two of which would really make me angry because we were there in pre-beta on the original boards (see sig) before there was even a certain store in the game itself. And the LoT has two words they could possibly go after the team for which in and of itself would be extremely stupid! That team was also pre-beta on the original boards.

And I'm with the Midnight Society that is closely monitoring Cryptic about the Midnight Squad. To put it mildly it was too close to the Society team concept before the game went into beta. Our chairperson had a few talks with their legal guys.

Seek justice (oh no! I used a possible copyrighten word! :notme: ) Masked Revenger, you are in the right!

Xanatos

05-11-2005, 10:16 AM

Don't worry about The Defenders of Paragon - I cleared that with the Cryptic legal big-wigs a long time ago :)

Masked Revenger

05-11-2005, 01:31 PM

Thanks for the responses and support, everyone. It really points out why I visit this site. :D

I still haven't heard from the legal department, but I expect that to take several days. I'll let you know the second I hear anything.

Avengers of Justice.. heh... I like that.

Chris

Randomus

05-11-2005, 01:36 PM

I hope I don't get hit because the City Watch has Watch in it, which is kind of like Watchmen. Or because The City Watch is a group in Discworld. And in many, y'know. Cities.

Esbat

05-11-2005, 01:40 PM

Quickly someone make Jesus and the Biblenauts as a SG before Marvel copyrights that too... :cry:

EDIT: too late (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/9979)

Kinetix

05-12-2005, 04:49 AM

My understanding of the whole legality which got Marvel's case thrown out of court was that Marvel, DC or any other comic book publisher can't trademark a word alone, only the exact image (or the image and name) of a particular character.

If you name your Hero "Wolverine" and give him a certain X-Man's blue-and-yellow costume, claws and regeneration, then you're infringing.

If you name your Hero "Wolverine" and he's an 8' tall red robot with horns, glowing eyes, a broadsword and invulnerability, then Marvel can't do a thing to you.

If your supergroup is "The Justice League of America" and it has a Superman, a Batman, a Wonder Woman, a Flash...that's infringement.

If your supergroup is "The Justice League of America" and its only three members are Captain Nuclear, the Spaz and Flexo Extendo, that's not infringement.

Someone needs to explain this to CuppaJo, the GM's and the rest of Cryptic's staff. You cannot trademark a character's name alone; You can only trademark the character's image and the associated name as well. It's a similar principle to fragrances: You can't trademark the formula for Giorgio, because the specific scent of the perfume or cologne depends partly on the person's biochemistry, and you can't trademark that. But you can trademark Giorgio's bottle and packaging design; The name and the scent just happen to be along for the litigative ride.

I found the perfect way to tell Cryptic this:

http://img143.echo.cx/img143/2660/landofthelost1li.gif

http://www.70slivekidvid.com/land/landofthelostbig.jpg

hypocrits :grr:

suburbanhell

05-12-2005, 04:54 AM

I found the perfect way to tell Cryptic this:

http://img143.echo.cx/img143/2660/landofthelost1li.gif

http://www.70slivekidvid.com/land/landofthelostbig.jpg

hypocrits :grr:

Touche! :duel:

Stalking Shadow

05-12-2005, 06:20 AM

Quickly someone make Jesus and the Biblenauts as a SG before Marvel copyrights that too... :cry:

EDIT: too late (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/9979)

That reminds me of an alt I once tried to make: "BATTLE POPE!" Warmace tanker.

Clone Man

05-12-2005, 06:28 AM

That reminds me of an alt I once tried to make: "BATTLE POPE!" Warmace tanker.

http://cafedna.icnetco.com/projects/BattlePope/storeroom/mainsplash.jpg

Sorry, copyrighted. :chuckle:

Randomus

05-12-2005, 12:44 PM

There's no way to tell if Cryptic got permission to use Land of the Lost or not. The game is full of little nods and homages like that.

Remianen

05-12-2005, 02:10 PM

In addition, Marvel really screwed themselves by bringing in, as evidence, examples of how they were easily able to make ingame versions of some of their own bread-and-butter characters.

I wish I'd been there to see their faces when Cryptic's legal folks pointed out that Marvel had to violate the EULA they'd agreed to (electronically signed) in order to access the character creation system to begin with.

Apples and oranges, BvS.

To have a paralegal at the law firm representing Marvel (or at another law firm, as a favor to someone at the firm representing Marvel) go out and buy CoH, install it, load it up and create a character from a picture does not mean 'Marvel' violated the EULA. This is a gray area you can't use blanket accusations against. It's a similar gray area to the "Check-A-Mate" method used in divorce proceedings (at least that's how it's explained to me). Besides, EULAs have never been universally determined to be legally binding, which is why the money and item sellers still exist in large part. No one wants to try it either for fear of what happens when/if a precedent is set. According to a friend of a friend (who's a sleazebag ambulance chaser but currently switching to an IP specialty), "IP law, when it matures, is going to make the Big Tobacco settlements look like a welfare check". The company who grows a pair and takes their EULA up the chain to the old folks home....errr, Supreme Court, is going to determine how much weight is given to clicking a box before the splash screen to a video game (which is generally how these old guard people think, I'm told). These games are still largely considered for kids by folks who sit on the bench in the appellate divisions in most major jurisdictions. So we have that to contend with as well. :(

Down with corporate stupidity and litigation!

Nooooooooooooo! Some of us make a good living off said corporate stupidity and several of my friends would have no reason to live without "the rush" of litigation. :( Tort reform makes them wake up in a cold sweat. :p

Masked Revenger

05-12-2005, 04:45 PM

I got the response back from the IP department... not good news.

Hello Mr. Blanchard,

Thanks for writing in with this. I have reviewed this issue, and
completely sympathize with your situation. However I regret that we
will
not be able to allow the name "Justice Avengers" within City of Heroes.

I understand that your group was inspired from an object within the
game. However, as you may know there are existing trademarks of both
Justice League and Avengers. Because of the comic book medium that we
work in, we simply are not in a position to allow that name.

I will be happy to help facilitate the resolution of this particular
issue for you. I believe that you received instructions on how to
obtain
a new name. If not, please let me know and I will be happy to assist.

Again I regret that you are not able to keep your name. If there are
any
additional question or concerns with this, please let me know.

Thanks and have a good day!
William Leverett
NC Interactive, Inc.
Austin, Texas
iprights@ncsoft.com

:cry: :mad: :grr: :confused: :yoy: :skull:

Chris

Remianen

05-12-2005, 04:51 PM

doh :(

Seems kinda a lame excuse they're using but that response has "CYA" (as in, Cover Your Arse) written all over it.

Amoeba Man

05-12-2005, 05:42 PM

I got the response back from the IP department... not good news.

:cry: :mad: :grr: :confused: :yoy: :skull:

ChrisThat totally sucks. Do you have any ideas for a new team name? :(

Tsarmina

05-12-2005, 05:51 PM

I guess the Avenging Avengers is out too eh? :eyebrow:

Masked Revenger

05-12-2005, 05:59 PM

That totally sucks. Do you have any ideas for a new team name? :(

I was thinking of just disbanding the team and starting over again as the Avengers of Justice.

Chris

BvS

05-12-2005, 06:13 PM

I was thinking of just disbanding the team and starting over again as the Avengers of Justice.

Chris

Uh, did I forget a smiley somewhere? (:) <--spare smiley, just in case).

I was being sarcastic when I made that 'suggestion'. It'd be no different than using 'Justice Avengers', as far as Cryptic is concerned. :)

inkblaster

05-12-2005, 06:20 PM

Justice Avenged?
Just us Revengers?

Greblaja

05-12-2005, 06:21 PM

Very sorry to hear this :(

Masked Revenger

05-12-2005, 06:37 PM

Uh, did I forget a smiley somewhere? (:) <--spare smiley, just in case).

I was being sarcastic when I made that 'suggestion'. It'd be no different than using 'Justice Avengers', as far as Cryptic is concerned. :)

I figured as much, but I also figure that Justice Avengers was reported by a player rather than Cryptic actually going out of their way to find it. Besides, I can't think of another name that's not an copyright violation using the same standards of reasoning.

Although, I'm more than interested in alternate names, if anyone wats to help. The concept of the team was classic, silver-age styled heroes working for truth, justice, et al.

Chris

Blue Bolt

05-12-2005, 06:41 PM

The concept of the team was classic, silver-age styled heroes working for truth, justice, et al.

Hey, there ya go! Truth & Justice, the name of your new SG ;)

Masked Revenger

05-12-2005, 06:45 PM

Hey, there ya go! Truth & Justice, the name of your new SG ;)

Hey, that's actually pretty good.

Chris

Maveric

05-12-2005, 08:54 PM

not to get off topic, but I once saw a super group named "Just Us Avengers" and "Just Us League"...

Elemento

05-14-2005, 08:25 PM

XANATOS ?????
How did you ever manage to get your name cleared with their legal department?

Like Masked Revenger, I got the axe thrown at my team too. My team was called The Outsiders.
I did some checking and only found it to be copyrighted by an author and referred to a gang. Her book was then made into a movie.

DC only owned the trademark in the comic business to the entirety of 'Batman and The Outsiders'. They never had it for just the name of The Outsiders.

Anyway after repeated attempts with mind you the top leading GM, I got nowhere. I submitted two alternate names that even got shot to pieces by them.
They claimed infringement on Intellectual Property.
My alternate names were:The Outsiders of Paragon or The Paragon Outsiders. Both did not satisfy them.

That's why I do not understand how you got them to pass on The Defenders of Paragon when I couldn't even have The Outsiders of Paragon.
I ended up calling the supergroup, The Unwanted

PM me or contact me by AIM, Xanatos. My handle is Cynical Mage.