Best villain motivations?

[coldcut]

So, just something I've been thinking about lately. While the motivation and characterization of comic book heroes seems to have really come into its own over the past decade or so, the same can't be said of the villains, who still seem to be into really bizarre plots involving giant kazoos and whatnot. Are there any villains out there who have really exemplary backstories, who have more than just the Dragonball Z/destroy the universe routine?

[Akamaz]

well, from everything i've heard (not read mind you) Doctor Victor Von Doom is supposed to have a really good backstory

[Xanatos]

I like Magneto allot actually. A victim of persecution for being Polish (i think) at a young age, and a mutant as he grew older. In his own mind he's a hero - and in Secret Wars - where each marvel character was placed on either the 'good' or 'bad' side - Magneto was placed on the 'good' side. The idea that an intensely speciesist/racist can have such noble goals to the point where he is the ultimate antihero is really affective writing in my eyes. He's kind of like Martin X to Proffesor X's Martin Luther King.

Another villain I like is Ozymandias(sp) from Watchmen. Mostly for the same reason above. His twisted views of the greater good being more important than human life is scarilly logical and makes him a very deep character. Probably my faverite supervilain of them all. "I did it 45 minutes ago" - best line EVER.

I suppose I'm a fan of the 'noble' villain. Which are pretty much heroes who have ended up on the wrong side of the tracks. In regards to other villain types - well it seems allot of heroes are getting increasingly darker/angstier these days. (reflective of the 'teenage power struggle' they represent I suppose ;) )

[Sable Phoenix]

If you want in-depth villians, look no farther than Batman's rogues gallery.

At the core of so many of his villians are loss, tragedy, and madness, usually all three, although madness is the constant that even his brilliant enemies like the Penguin or Ra's Al Ghul seem to deal with. Most of them don't want to take over the world, their motivations are very personal. Mr. Freeze, for example, is an incredibly empathic villian, as is Two-Face (although I'm going off the Animated Series here, the comics might be a bit different, but I find that TAS usually condensed the origins into a more believable and emotionally weighty form anyway).

[Blackbat]

If you want in-depth villians, look no farther than Batman's rogues gallery.

At the core of so many of his villians are loss, tragedy, and madness, usually all three, although madness is the constant that even his brilliant enemies like the Penguin or Ra's Al Ghul seem to deal with. Most of them don't want to take over the world, their motivations are very personal. Mr. Freeze, for example, is an incredibly empathic villian, as is Two-Face (although I'm going off the Animated Series here, the comics might be a bit different, but I find that TAS usually condensed the origins into a more believable and emotionally weighty form anyway).

I have two personal favorites, Ra's Al Ghul and The Joker. Two of the best villians ever IMO.

The Joker is a Psychotic madman that you just cannot predict. He doesn't want to take over the world, he just wants to see people suffer (namely Batman)

Ra's Al Ghul is probably the smartest and most cunning villian that Batman has ever faced. He is probably the only one that can match wits with Batman and actually come out of ahead. He dreams of destroying the world via an ecological disaster so that he can remake mankind. Very cool guy, but also insane. He was actually a 'good guy' believe it or not before he was changed. You can read his origin in the trade 'Birth of the Demon'. Very cool read.

His history with Batman is one of the most original plots I've read. There are a couple trades you can pick up to get the whole scoop. 'Son of the Demon' and 'Bride of the Demon' are awesome reads.

[Griimace]

The new Zoom, as seen in The Flash. A former friend of Wally snaps after being caught in an explosion on a time machine decides that to make Flash a better hero, he must have something traumatizing to him. So he....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
*cough*Kills the unborn twins of Wally and his wife.*cough*

Intersting, to say the least. "I'm evil so that I can make you a better hero!"

[Stalking Shadow]

One word: pie.

[Digital]

I like Magneto allot actually...

I too like Magneto's backstory. I forget which comic it was, but I think it was his first real outburst. Not really the manifestation of his powers, he knew about them before just kept them on the downlow. His kids (Not scarlet witch and quicksilver) were trapped in a house fire and Mags wanted to save them but the police held him down and refused to let him (I want to say because they knew he was a mutant, but I'm not totally sure). His kids were killed in the fire and magneto killed them. Then his wife called him a Monster and ran away.

I can always understand Magneto's actions, not agree but understand. I'll always pick up a book with Magneto in it. I love the relationship between him and Xavier.

[coldcut]

I gotta agree with all of the responses here. But I knew about most of those guys beforehand.

I thought one of the neat things about Spiderman 2 was that it took what has previously been a cheeseball villain, Doc Ock, and gave him a real reason for being bad.

[Griimace]

I gotta agree with all of the responses here. But I knew about most of those guys beforehand.

I thought one of the neat things about Spiderman 2 was that it took what has previously been a cheeseball villain, Doc Ock, and gave him a real reason for being bad.


That it was his metal tentacles making him do it, not himself? :rolleyes: JK! :neener: No, Movie Ock's motivations worked in some parts, but some parts just made it really corny. Like the tentacles. And the fact that he still tried to perform his "revolutionary" experiment even though he was mad at the world, and that it was what got his wifey killed in the first place.

[azurite]

The new Zoom, as seen in The Flash. A former friend of Wally snaps after being caught in an explosion on a time machine decides that to make Flash a better hero, he must have something traumatizing to him. So he....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
*cough*Kills the unborn twins of Wally and his wife.*cough*

Intersting, to say the least. "I'm evil so that I can make you a better hero!"

just picked up a graphic novel featuring zoom Noice

and id also suggest picking up 500 comic book villians, by mike conroy, very helpful book.

out of the those my all time favorite would have to be eclipso from jsa, but rose/thorn ties close second

[Got]

I don't read comics with much regularity anymore. The last series I read (besides the Goon) was the 6 issue mini-series Arkham Asylum: Living Hell. Interesting to note that I only picked it up because the Goon's artist/writer was doing the covers, I've never generally read much Batman. I'll have to get the TPB because I'm not sure I even got the last two issues.

Anyway, in it was introduced Humpty Dumpty (http://www.slushfactory.com/image.php?z=http://www.slushfactory.com/content/newspics/051503-arkham-art4-l.jpg). No idea if this guy existed before the mini-series but I'm led to believe that he was new (or at least re-vamped) for the story.

I'll see if I can find the comic so I can scan the pages explaining how he came to be because no google found explanation gives it justice.

And while it's not one of the most believable it's certainly my favourite, he's a very Gotham City villain.

[The Widowed]

Another villain I like is Ozymandias(sp) from Watchmen. Mostly for the same reason above. His twisted views of the greater good being more important than human life is scarilly logical and makes him a very deep character. Probably my faverite supervilain of them all. "I did it 45 minutes ago" - best line EVER.
Google says it was 35 minutes ago. :D

But I'm intrigued. I can't find anything about the in-story event surrounding this quote. Could you explain to me what happened?

And I applaud your likening of Magneto and Professor X to Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. I never thought of their conflict in that light before. :)

[coldcut]

Google says it was 35 minutes ago. :D

But I'm intrigued. I can't find anything about the in-story event surrounding this quote. Could you explain to me what happened?

And I applaud your likening of Magneto and Professor X to Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. I never thought of their conflict in that light before. :)

Buy the TPB before you let anyone explain it to you. Watchmen is what got me interested in comics again. It's not just a great comic, it's great literature.

[Gold Rush]

Pretty much everything has been covered here. But I'll add in some of my thoughts on this, even tough I think most of this jibes with what people agree upon in general. This dialogue just might open some brain pathway for coldcut.

First off, I think my favorite villian has to be Marvel's Doctor Doom. The character has multiple levels of motivation and a redeeming quality. i just can't stop being in awe of him, especially when he is written well.

Although I do agree with the nobility of Magneto, he really is not my favorite. Frankly, the overdone nature of mutant books contributes to this. I have even tired of Wolverine to a great extent (maybe in a few years, being away from the books, my interest will be renewed).

In general, motivations for villians can be more complex than even what heroes go through. I think many times, villians are more interesting personality wise, be it the formations of their behavior or their reason for actions. Again, this depends on the writer/creator. It is easy (unfortunately) to focus more on the hero (especially if someone makes a new hero) and give the villian minor attention.

Let me attempt to list some qualities of villians that can be written in both good and bad ways.

- The first thing is obvious. Many villians, especially the "sane" ones that I can admire, do not think what they are doing is evil. They just have a strong desire or motivation. In this case, many times "good" morals are thrown out, just because the villian is driven. That does not mean they cannot have compassion or even honor for an enemy. It's just that the belief system for that villian is very strong for him/her/it. This, interestingly enough, leads to...

- Selfishness. I would say, to a certain degree, most villians suffer from this in one form or another. Now, to say they are totally selfish (especially the greater villians) would be wrong, but many times, you can see they want to help themselves, their position, or their CHARGES (people under them) and the rest of the world be damned! Doom has his Latervia and rules it well (and is beloved by his people), for the most part, he wpuld risk alot to save his country. The same thing with Magneto. He cares about mutants, but if you get in his way, be you human or mutant, the gloves are off. This also leads to another ironic issue that kinda contradicts this, especially with "noble" villians: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. A villian generally has no compunction of sacrificing one of his cohorts for the betterment of himself or his people whereas heroes would agonize over this. Again, this is not to say the villian won't agonize about it at some later time, but they will tend to act more immediately and in a cool and calm manner when such a sacrifice comes up. Heroes may wind up sacrificing one to save many (especially themselves), but generally, they will attempt to solve all problems first before resorting to this last resort.

- I think I pointed out this before, but most of my favorite villians do have a set of rules (honor) that they generally won't do. If such a circumstance comes up, well, that makes it that much more tragic. :) Generally, the Joker does not fall under this heading, because he is insane, but at times and given different writers, even he has his own rules ("Only I can kill Batman; no one else." being an example).

- An interesting villian, as has been pointed out, is the EXTREMELY MISGUIDED villian, such as the examples of the new Professor Zoom (Heck, even the old Prof. Zoom became misguided near the end). Writers tend to give these villians a psychological flaw or show them to be less sane than others around them. I think this is done to make them more reprehensible to readers and easier for the writer to write, because a simple misguided villian with good intentions would draw out sympathy in readers if not done right (and it is hard to do it right admittedly). An example of an extremely Misguided type with good intentions would be some of the old Soleman Grundy or Blockbuster (DC Batman) stories (Grundy was good for awhile in the past). These characters tend to be child-like (more sympathy).

- Just another note of determined villians that carry their own vision of the world. Of course, I did say they do not view themselves as evil, even when they may be truly evil. Some villians do view themselves as evil and this is a simple shorthand to show them as evil. However, knowing that one is evil or not, let's break apart what is different from these villians from the "noble" ones. They have very little honor or rules or morals. Such evil vileness basically likes to bask in their own bloodlust or at least smile at the thought of it. In some cases, their may be a few redeeming qualities to these "totally" evil villians (such as family loyalty or love for a girlfriend/boyfriend), but such examples or public showings of affection is rare. Most writers tend to amp the volume of vileness in these cases by having a touching scene and having the villian kill his paramour. It is done to great affect, but can be cliched if you have "seen it all/read it all". You could say these villians have no scruples and are born to be hated by the reader, although, this is not necessarily a bad thing, because readers love villians that they hate. :)

- In addition to the vile villian, there are quite a number of insane ones (like Joker). These villians don't require much motivation, but can serve as objects of "booing" for the reader just because they have no seemingly redeming qualities. These villians tend to be easy to write for the most part. They are not my favorite types (Yeah, I am not a big Joker fan :( ). However, there are a few villians that escape this and can be interesting in their own right. I also think a writer can give a villian, such as the Joker, something unique. One can look at it as a mirror to the human psyche or even a mirror of opposition to the hero for the reader (and hero) to compare ("I could have been exactly like him if only for different pathway in life did not show up for me.")/ Such a villian can be exteremely complex, but if pulled off, extremely interesting, too.

- And then there are the "everyday" villians. These can vary from the second-hand rogue's gallery villian to the street thug. They can be rich or poor. They tend to be sane (or at least saner than the Joker). Such villians can show a slice of life, good or bad, for most readers. I tend to prefer the "mini-noble" villians in this character, although their backgrounds can be quite sordid and very depressing. And example of this would be the villian that grew up in an abusive family and had no where else to turn but crime (or even "I had to steal bread to live"). These villians tend to end tragically, which can be...rather tragic. A few redeem themselves. Most are given some spotlight in a great story but then this is not explored in later years. Some may even view their villiany as "normal everyday life" (Like mafia-types). It's just the way they were brought up and they are loyal to the boss (although some may be looking out for themselves ultimately, again, "selfishness" enters the picture; if a better boss shows up that pays better, they jump on that bandwagon).

- And then, there are even non-villians. These folks just have a different viewpoint and goal from the hero. An example of this (although not a perfect example) would be Avengers vs. Justice League and similiar titles pitting heroes against each other. In this case, it doesn't even have to be a hero of another world/dimension, it could just be a normal citizen. Both have good intentions but have different ways to do things or because of circumstance, they are set at opposite goals from each other. If they had met at a bar, they would be friends, but both want the same thing and only one can get it. Many times, especially among heroes, this is solved and talked out, but what if it never got to that stage. Remember, a "villian" does not think himself as evil and, may in fact, think of his enemy as the evil one ("He's THE MAN. And he's trying to squash my individuality with rules and law!"). Here no one is "evil", but there is a direct competition with one another.

- There are probably a few more examples, but...sheesh, this is turning long and I probably am logged out as I right this and need to copy, re-log in, and paste. :)

Gold Rush

(Many levels of villiany and honor in life)

[Solario]

Pretty much everything has been covered here. But I'll add in some of my thoughts on this, even tough I think most of this jibes with what people agree upon in general. This dialogue just might open some brain pathway for coldcut.

First off, I think my favorite villian has to be Marvel's Doctor Doom. The character has multiple levels of motivation and a redeeming quality. i just can't stop being in awe of him, especially when he is written well.[/b]

Doom is awesome. I especially like the fact, that he quite possibly could improve the world, along with bring peace to it. The Doom way.

(Unrelated favorite newer Doom line:

Dr. Doom: "Shoddy American workmanship, such incompetence would not be permitted in the Latveria of... DOCTOR DOOM!"
Doom Minion: "How do you do that?"
Dr. Doom: "Do what?"
Doom Minion: "Speak in all capitals like that?"
Dr. Doom: "Silence, minion!")

Although I do agree with the nobility of Magneto, he really is not my favorite. Frankly, the overdone nature of mutant books contributes to this. I have even tired of Wolverine to a great extent (maybe in a few years, being away from the books, my interest will be renewed).

I'm generally just tired of him getting killed and revived on a seemingly constant bases recently.

- The first thing is obvious. Many villians, especially the "sane" ones that I can admire, do not think what they are doing is evil. They just have a strong desire or motivation. In this case, many times "good" morals are thrown out, just because the villian is driven. That does not mean they cannot have compassion or even honor for an enemy. It's just that the belief system for that villian is very strong for him/her/it. This, interestingly enough, leads to...

As seen in Ras Al Ghul, Dr. Doom and [Invincible Series SPOILER!]Omni-man amongst others.

- I think I pointed out this before, but most of my favorite villians do have a set of rules (honor) that they generally won't do. If such a circumstance comes up, well, that makes it that much more tragic. :) Generally, the Joker does not fall under this heading, because he is insane, but at times and given different writers, even he has his own rules ("Only I can kill Batman; no one else." being an example).

- An interesting villian, as has been pointed out, is the EXTREMELY MISGUIDED villian, such as the examples of the new Professor Zoom (Heck, even the old Prof. Zoom became misguided near the end). Writers tend to give these villians a psychological flaw or show them to be less sane than others around them. I think this is done to make them more reprehensible to readers and easier for the writer to write, because a simple misguided villian with good intentions would draw out sympathy in readers if not done right (and it is hard to do it right admittedly). An example of an extremely Misguided type with good intentions would be some of the old Soloman Grundy or Blockbuster (DC Batman) stories (Grundy was good for awhile in the past). These characters tend to be child-like (more sympathy).[/b][/quote]


- In addition to the vile villian, there are quite a number of insane ones (like Joker). These villians don't require much motivation, but can serve as objects of "booing" for the reader just because they have no seemingly redeming qualities. These villians tend to be easy to write for the most part. They are not my favorite types (Yeah, I am not a big Joker fan :( ). However, there are a few villians that escape this and can be interesting in their own right. I also think a writer can give a villian, such as the Joker, something unique. One can look at it as a mirror to the human psyche or even a mirror of opposition to the hero for the reader (and hero) to compare ("I could have been exactly like him if only for different pathway in life did not show up for me.")/ Such a villian can be exteremely complex, but if pulled off, extremely interesting, too.[b]

[b]- And then there are the "everyday" villians. These can vary from the second-hand rogue's gallery villian to the street thug. They can be rich or poor. They tend to be sane (or at least saner than the Joker). Such villians can show a slice of life, good or bad, for most readers. I tend to prefer the "mini-noble" villians in this character, although their backgrounds can be quite sordid and very depressing. And example of this would be the villian that grew up in an abusive family and had no where else to turn but crime (or even "I had to steal bread to live"). These villians tend to end tragically, which can be...rather tragic. A few redeem themselves. Most are given some spotlight in a great story but then this is not explored in later years. Some may even view their villiany as "normal everyday life" (Like mafia-types). It's just the way they were brought up and they are loyal to the boss (although some may be looking out for themselves ultimately, again, "selfishness" enters the picture; if a better boss shows up that pays better, they jump on that bandwagon).

A perfect example of this is definently Parker Robbins from the short lived Max mini: The Hood. I definently recommedate this title to.. well.. everyone.

Parker Robbins is basically a common thug with a good heart. He usually follows the notion, that he only kills in self defense, and only mobsters, and even though he lies to his comatozed mother and is cheating on his wife, who he truly loves, he is still such a sympathetic character.

[b]- And then, there are even non-villians. These folks just have a different viewpoint and goal from the hero. An example of this (although not a perfect example) would be Avengers vs. Justice League and similiar titles pitting heroes against each other. In this case, it doesn't even have to be a hero of another world/dimension, it could just be a normal citizen. Both have good intentions but have different ways to do things or because of circumstance, they are set at opposite goals from each other. If they had met at a bar, they would be friends, but both want the same thing and only one can get it. Many times, especially among heroes, this is solved and talked out, but what if it never got to that stage. Remember, a "villian" does not think himself as evil and, may in fact, think of his enemy as the evil one ("He's THE MAN. And he's trying to squash my individuality with rules and law!"). Here no one is "evil", but there is a direct competition with one another.

A perfect example of this is Anarky from the Batman Series. He has fused the two parts of his brain and he once tried to artificially forcibly enlighten the entire world, but Batman foiled it, and only Anarky was hit. Here he realised that "enlightenment" can only work, if it is voluntary, so he now fights crime, trying to be an example of who one can achieve perfection and tries to inspire people into taking matters in their own hands, and still hold a high moral codex (like not killing).

[Randomus]

The analogy of Xavier as MLK Jr and Magneto as Malcolm X has been the subject of several academic papers. Even one written by yours truly. It's always interesting to look back at comics right after they crippled themselves in their mad paranoid scramble and see how they got around the rules. The X-Men was the perfect example of Stan slipping in political commentary where it wasn't allowed.

[Sun-Scarab]

I kinda like the thug-teacher villian Taskmaster's motivation.
had a very nice skill power, could have being a captain america type hero,
but wanted money more.
in the 4 part mini series Taskmaster:
He had a nice penthouse & a custom job of a yacht on order;
then I thought back to when spider-man was kicked out of his apt.
at christmas time for not having the rent. (or close to that it was a bit back)
now thats motivation!