So, now that the NDA is lifted on DDO...

[bpphantom]

Anyone have any impressions from Beta or the Stress Test?

Based on reviews (PCG) and the forums, I'm planning on waiting for the 14-Day Free Trial that every games gives out these days.

[Poison]

Holy! They lifetd the NDA? I've been a mildly active member at their boards and registered there October 2004. I got no beta invite. Bastards. :grr:

[bpphantom]

Yup. Apparently it goes live Feb 28/06.

[Seadevil]

I tried the PnP version of D&D a few weeks ago. It was pretty interesting so i'll check this out. Hopefully they'll have some sort of trial.

[Remianen]

DO NOT!

Or, try the trial and run screaming into the night.

Turbine really blew this one. The game is really bad. Start from character development and content. In order to get to max level, you have to do every quest in the game 3 times (once on each difficulty level). Not so bad, right? Well it is when you realize these quests don't change from iteration to iteration. So if the first time you do the quest, the rest shrine is on your left and the trapped chest is on your right, that's exactly how it'll be the next two times you do it.

Another bad thing about it is its forced grouping model. Those are soooo '99-ish. There will be no solo content AT ALL. While it's possible to solo stuff well under your level, it doesn't make sense to do it (think of it like beating on grays to level in CoH). It may be easier to find a group (you get automatically matched to a group with openings doing around the same level of stuff) but what happens when you zone into the dungeon to complete your quests? Everyone in your group runs off to hit the rest shrine or loot the chests (since they know exactly where these are from doing the quest previously).

The combat model is....well, I dunno what it is. It's sure as hell not intuitive or fun. Without divulging any spoilers, I'll say this: it reminded me of present-day SWG in several ways heh.

Max level at release is going to be 10, which should tell you how "hard" it'll be to level. They say they have more dungeons but I'm suspicious. The UI is clunky, combat is a clickfest, they're not using an established setting (so no Toril or Krynn or Ravenlost or even Al'Qadim. Ebberon is a totally new creation) so there's not going to be recognizable lore. I dunno wtf would possess WoTC to choose TURBINE to make this game when there are so many other development houses who could've done it better (hell, CCCP wouldn't have flubbed it up this bad). :|

It had much potential but unfortunately, it doesn't bring anything new or innovative to the table. I should note that technically I wasn't in the beta. But my cousin, who has been a diehard AC/Turbine fan since day one of AC, was disgusted within weeks and quit playing so I kinda took it for a whirl. YMMV though.

[MikeKAY]

Unfortunately I have to agree with Remianen, this and Auto Assault were my two most anticipated new MMOs and both turned out pretty ****ty IMO. :grr:

I figure now that this crop is looking rather bleak I have to think outside the box... Seed, (http://208.64.64.65/news.php) a game so far out of the norm it can't possibly be a total freakin' let down. :p

[Masked Revenger]

they're not using an established setting (so no Toril or Krynn or Ravenlost or even Al'Qadim. Ebberon is a totally new creation) so there's not going to be recognizable lore.

Ebberon is an esttabilished setting. It was released in 2004.

True, it's the newest setting, and not the one I would have picked for an MMO (I would have gone with Forgotten Realms), but it's not a completly new creation for the video game.

I am truly dissapointed to hear all this. D&D has been one of my favorite PnP RPG's, I've been playing since 1st edition AD&D. To hear this game is this bad really sucks. :cry:

Chris

[PawnOfFate]

Ive been in the Beta for it for a long time.. and I can honestly say... meh.

Some elements I would love to see in other MMOs.... especially dynamic dungeons with traps and such...

But overall, it's not D&D enough to old the D&D fans and it's not MMO enough to hold MMO fans... I predict failure in 3 months following release.

[Chain Lightning]

Yeah I got into the beta back in November or October, and I was really not at all impressed. The combat does remind me of SWG quite a bit.

I didn't know about the bit about having to do the dungeons three times to hit max level, but that does explain why it would show you three difficulties on missions, but yet wouldn't let me change it.

I'm going to be passing on this one.

[Gold Rush]

Well, I guess the good news seems to be, unless it's DIRT CHEAP (or free) and/or they majorly change the game, then I will be saving money for something else. :)

=====================================

Gold Rush

(Actually, I do like the Eberron setting, but it really is being overused; it was used in the last RTS game which was released a few months ago. Forgotten Realms and the other settings are in strange licensing limbo atm. WOTC supports Forgotten Realms in some things, but not in others. Dragonlance is now run by fans as some of the other worlds are because WOTC just felt like dropping those worlds to concentrate on something else. I could tell you a bunch of stuff, since I sorta hang with folks that know this silly political game that WOTC tries to pull on DnD fans)

[Yin]

Well that bites.

Seems as if more and more MMOs are pulling the "u suxx0rz" card. Here's hoping SOE doesn't screw up the DC MMO. I'd play that before Marvel.

[Enlightened One]

Actually, I rather liked it.


It has it's downsides, but I admit it was fun grouping up and then tackling a dungeon together. The actual dungeon gameplay experience per se really DID feel like a crawl. Rest shrines seemed odd, but not entirely bad. Great graphics.


Unfortunately, what I liked least was Ebberon. If it was FR, we could talk, but ugh. Reminds me of Ismir (sp?) from the D&D movie - some fantasyland that just didn't feel quite inspired as previous ones...

[Remianen]

(Actually, I do like the Eberron setting, but it really is being overused; it was used in the last RTS game which was released a few months ago. Forgotten Realms and the other settings are in strange licensing limbo atm. WOTC supports Forgotten Realms in some things, but not in others. Dragonlance is now run by fans as some of the other worlds are because WOTC just felt like dropping those worlds to concentrate on something else. I could tell you a bunch of stuff, since I sorta hang with folks that know this silly political game that WOTC tries to pull on DnD fans)

Yes and no. You see, part of the problem is that each setting is heavily (and I mean HEAVILY) reliant on its creator(s). Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman have full, unquestioned editorial control over Dragonlance content and Ed Greenwood holds similar privileges for Forgotten Realms. The reason being, most of the signature characters of those series (The Majeres, Dalamar for DL and Elminster, the Seven Sisters, the Chosen of Mystra, the Knights of Myth Drannor for FR) are pretty much owned by the folks who created them. (i.e. Elaine Cunningham = Arilyn Moonblade & Danilo Thann & Liriel Baenre, etc). Mary Herbert did a great job developing Linsha Majere, but her contract ended with the Linsha Trilogy (though Margaret wants her to do a trilogy on Ulin Majere (outside of the Fifth Age stuff) as well as continuing Linsha's adventures). Right now, Dragonlance is kinda in limbo while they work out contracts for their writers and like you said, WOTC seems lukewarm about doing that. Salvatore is unique in that he continually puts out work on his end but then Drizzt and Co. are his (and who else operates out of Icewind Dale since Liriel and Fahfrd passed through?).

Now, I'm just talking the publishing end (the novels and such). I dunno if this correlates to the game supplements and such at all. Plus, the way I heard it, Ebberon as a setting was created specifically for the MMO game to use as a backdrop since the geniuses at WOTC saw EQ1 doing gangbusters business and started planning on launching their own game (way back in 2001).

But I'll give you a scoop on a game that shouldn't suck. Click here (http://www.godsandheroes.com/index.html) :) Same folks doing the Star Trek MMO btw.

[Poison]

I'm really sad to hear these things about DDO, being an old D&D player (started 13 years ago). I do agree about the setting, Eberron really didn't attract me. Hell, they could've taken NVN and just created the whole forgotten Realms and I would have played it for months. I still hope I get into beta for a few days, so I can see for myself.

And that Gods and Heroes looks interesting.

[Sword]

I figure now that this crop is looking rather bleak I have to think outside the box... Seed, (http://208.64.64.65/news.php) a game so far out of the norm it can't possibly be a total freakin' let down. :p

Ooh, that looks nifty. I've just spent the last hour or so reading through the background info and such. Think I'll apply for the beta for that. Would be nice with a complete change of pace. Also, it looks like it's very RP-oriented, which will be a nice break from CoH.

[coldcut]

Yes and no. You see, part of the problem is that each setting is heavily (and I mean HEAVILY) reliant on its creator(s). Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman have full, unquestioned editorial control over Dragonlance content and Ed Greenwood holds similar privileges for Forgotten Realms. The reason being, most of the signature characters of those series (The Majeres, Dalamar for DL and Elminster, the Seven Sisters, the Chosen of Mystra, the Knights of Myth Drannor for FR) are pretty much owned by the folks who created them. (i.e. Elaine Cunningham = Arilyn Moonblade & Danilo Thann & Liriel Baenre, etc). Mary Herbert did a great job developing Linsha Majere, but her contract ended with the Linsha Trilogy (though Margaret wants her to do a trilogy on Ulin Majere (outside of the Fifth Age stuff) as well as continuing Linsha's adventures). Right now, Dragonlance is kinda in limbo while they work out contracts for their writers and like you said, WOTC seems lukewarm about doing that. Salvatore is unique in that he continually puts out work on his end but then Drizzt and Co. are his (and who else operates out of Icewind Dale since Liriel and Fahfrd passed through?).

Now, I'm just talking the publishing end (the novels and such). I dunno if this correlates to the game supplements and such at all. Plus, the way I heard it, Ebberon as a setting was created specifically for the MMO game to use as a backdrop since the geniuses at WOTC saw EQ1 doing gangbusters business and started planning on launching their own game (way back in 2001).

But I'll give you a scoop on a game that shouldn't suck. Click here (http://www.godsandheroes.com/index.html) :) Same folks doing the Star Trek MMO btw.

I don't do any Dungeoning nor Dragoning, but it sounds to me like Wizards of the Coast is trying to gain a lot more control over their properties at the expense of their establised stars. Just a quick impression mind you.

[Remianen]

I don't do any Dungeoning nor Dragoning, but it sounds to me like Wizards of the Coast is trying to gain a lot more control over their properties at the expense of their establised stars. Just a quick impression mind you.

Problem is, it's too late.

As it stands, the original established stars have already given birth (sometimes literally) to another generation of stars (TWO generations, for Dragonlance). Linsha Majere is Caramon's granddaughter and she's gotten to the point where she could "take" Grandpa in his prime. Plus, it doesn't seem like they have a plan for how to do that aside from wiping two of the most memorable (and profitable) settings in fantasy publishing history right off the face of the earth.

But I think DDO's release will show them the value of established worlds with constant cash flow, since I think the game will flop.

[MikeKAY]

Ooh, that looks nifty. I've just spent the last hour or so reading through the background info and such. Think I'll apply for the beta for that. Would be nice with a complete change of pace. Also, it looks like it's very RP-oriented, which will be a nice break from CoH.

I was pretty impressed with the interactive AI they are making and the general tech end of things. If it doesn't flop it could impact the way these games are made in general. Plus the setting and back-story is well made and completely inseparable from the gameplay which should feed into the RP end of things very well. To top things off its unconventional enough to turn the l33t kiddies off entirely. Definitely something to look into; I already signed up for beta and I post a little in the forum... to my surprise so does Mina.

[coldcut]

Problem is, it's too late.

As it stands, the original established stars have already given birth (sometimes literally) to another generation of stars (TWO generations, for Dragonlance). Linsha Majere is Caramon's granddaughter and she's gotten to the point where she could "take" Grandpa in his prime. Plus, it doesn't seem like they have a plan for how to do that aside from wiping two of the most memorable (and profitable) settings in fantasy publishing history right off the face of the earth.

But I think DDO's release will show them the value of established worlds with constant cash flow, since I think the game will flop.

Meant the authors, not the characters.

[bpphantom]

Eberron was a great choice for a world. It's got some great development already done, but a lot of it is still in flux or completely open.
They've said they couldn't have done FR because everybody knows everything about it. There is nothing new that can be put in the Realms.

Greyhawk had a lot of options, especially considering that the explored "Oerth" is less than 1/15th of the world.

Still, Eberron has a nice Arcanum/Deathgate feel to it. I've played in Eberron and I like it for itself.

14-Day trials here I come!

[Gold Rush]

I don't do any Dungeoning nor Dragoning, but it sounds to me like Wizards of the Coast is trying to gain a lot more control over their properties at the expense of their establised stars. Just a quick impression mind you.

I also think Remianen said it was made specifically for MMO. I am not sure if WOTC had an eye for this particularly *just* for MMO. Coldcut's answer is more correct.

Awhile back, WOTC had a contest to see who could submit the best gameworld among readers of Dragon Magazine and DnD players. The guy who wrote Ebberon won this contest. About two years before this, WOTC pulled its *major* support from the Forgotten Realms campaign; they are still printing supplements and all, but they are not as focused on it as they used to be. When the new DnD 3.0 launched, it was the Greyhawk world that was drawing the crowds. Since Greyhawk is the "default" setting and WOTC, by virtue of getting the rights to DnD, owns Greyhawk, they were happy.

But happiness doesn't last. WOTC is greedy. They are used to printing new expansions and getting a normal amount of cash flow in. So this tends to call for something "new". So, when Ebberon was produced, it was touted a gaming cons and fan-fair broke loose. It was also rolled into a new offline game for the WOTC sponsered player-circles (sorta like offline EQ). As a result, Greyhawk has suffered, but not overly much, since the fanbase seems to still prefer it and at least in Greyhawk's case, they don't want to throw out the cash baby with the bath water.

I think to promote Ebberon, WOTC started encouraging software game developers to use THAT setting instead of Greyhawk. This is all part of the "lookee me" thing that WOTC hopes will inspire players new and old to buy yet MORE books, figures, et al so they can generate money.

While I do like Ebberon (mostly one of the new races), I realize it ain't "all that" and I still prefer Greyhawk more.

==========================================

Gold Rush

[Masked Revenger]

Since when is a companies desire to generate steady cash flow greedy?

Of course, WoTC wants to make money. And the way they do that is with supliments. So, a new setting means that many more supliments. Personally, I haven't seen any support lost to either Greyhawk (which, really, had very little outside of Living Greyhawk), or to Forgotten Realms (which still get's regular supliments). In fact, almost every time a major setting-non-specific supliment comes out, a FR specific version of it also comes out.

I think the push with Eberron is just that it's new, and they want to push it considering the amount of money the spent on developing and printing it. It's nothing surprising in anyway shape or form, just normal business.

Chris

[8 Ball]

Meh...didn't have a lot of interest in DDO, still watching Age of Conan very closely though (yay for a M-rated MMO) :D

[PawnOfFate]

Dont get me wrong, Ive been playing d&d for a long time (14 years, since I was 10) ... This does have some very nice D&D elements... but from what I could tell when I played.... there were very very few RPers.

Rogue: "Trap!"
Fighter: *runs through it anyway*
Rogue: "... I said Trap."
Fighter: "Cleric will heal me."

[Maveric]

long time player/fan of d&d. i think DDO is good but not great. then again I loved Asheron's Call but hated EQ and WoW. they did some things right, they did some things wrong, and they are still in the process of tweaking the game. i have to admit the last few beta upgrades have really started to polish up the game. i'm also looking forward to the monthly content updates, (like they did with Asheron's call).

the two reasons i think DDO will not please the non D&D gamers is that to really "enjoy" the game you REALLY need;

a balanced group (usually at least 1 healer, 1 tanker, 1 rogue, 1 mage)

and

people who know how to play those roles or at the very least appreciate teamwork

i'm still beta'ing DDO (mostly play my characters Maveric Darkhorse or Mavericar Risingsun) and will probably purchase it when it comes out.

i have serious doubts on wether or not i will stay with the game. it seriously depends on if i can find a good guild of regular players. grouping with strange assholes because i can't solo, is not what i want to spend money on.

i do keep wishing Cryptic would get their head out of their ass and create an assload more costume options, powers, and archetypes (non-villian, non-epic). i need to create new characters :P

-Mav

[Gold Rush]

Since when is a companies desire to generate steady cash flow greedy?

Of course, WoTC wants to make money.

Well, of course. Making money is fine, however, I come from the "Living Greyhawk" end. When certain decisions are made to throw out old supplements/not use them in favor of more newer ones and imposing this one a cmapaign or when DnD offline rules get upgraded to 3.5 with the expectation of everyone having to buy them, that just smacks of too much greed and not enough respect for players.

I am all for the supplements. To introduce some new book and adopt it in the campaign is fine, but I sense WOTC pressuring the "Living" worlds to accept these changes mostly to generate cash flow from a captive audience.

It's just adding one thing...then another...then another. And I don't see it stopping. I could accept these changes, although I would rather've waited for a 4.0 re-vision than make mine and many new players' books "obsolete". Of course, this isn't the everyday DnD world of the casual player or the home game. There need to be rules, but I personally see some arm-twisting by WOTC to MAKE a captive audience accept things that involve making more money. Again, I am all for buying new supplements, but for them to basically say what we bought in the past is obsolete and you better buy the new set of books, I am suspicious of that and a bit upset over it.

Perhaps I don't agree with the WAY WOTC is making their money based on their existing player base.
==================================

Gold Rush

[Titomancer]

Eberron was not created for MMOs...for the record, what WotC and the Eberron team did was give the vide games using the world 1 single continent (Zendrik) and gave them carte blanche with it (this is what used to be here, but its unexplored, have fun).

DDO is a noble effort...they DID try to get that DnD feel, but being a video game, it has its limits. And they tried to make in an MMO, but being DnD, it has its limits. All in all, good try, not stellar implimentation, but I do like the teamwork and complete lack of soloing. The in-game voice-chat is handy too. Unless they make some major improvements, yes, it will fail. However, I find it fun. The ability to play a non-combat character and still survive and be useful is nice (I played a Rogue, specialized in locks and traps, very fun, I never had to kill anything) and yes, the combat system is a little clunky, but once to get used to it....eh, its still clunky.

Overall, not a bad game, I'd say try a trial before writing it off completely. Its one of those games you either love to death, or hate with a passion.

[ChairLegOfTruth]

It's just adding one thing...then another...then another. And I don't see it stopping. I could accept these changes, although I would rather've waited for a 4.0 re-vision than make mine and many new players' books "obsolete". Of course, this isn't the everyday DnD world of the casual player or the home game. There need to be rules, but I personally see some arm-twisting by WOTC to MAKE a captive audience accept things that involve making more money. Again, I am all for buying new supplements, but for them to basically say what we bought in the past is obsolete and you better buy the new set of books, I am suspicious of that and a bit upset over it.

Perhaps I don't agree with the WAY WOTC is making their money based on their existing player base.
Agreed. I spent a small fortune of 3.0 and then within the course of a single campaign we had 3.5. If they wanted to emulate computer games like that they could have released a patch book and left it at that but no they had to 'require' a new edition set of rule books.

I remember WoTC back before Magic:The Gathering, when all they were really known for was a quirky fanatsy rpg called "Talislante" which rocked. Corporate greed has over run them, which is sad.

[UnSub]

I think WotC and greed officially met the day WotC received the patent on collectible card games. Since then they've looked to buy up all that they could in order to keep the money coming.

I've got nothing against profit, but I also agree with Google's motto: "Don't be evil".

[Remianen]

i have serious doubts on wether or not i will stay with the game. it seriously depends on if i can find a good guild of regular players. grouping with strange assholes because i can't solo, is not what i want to spend money on.

This is the single most important thing to note about MMOs in general. If you're going to make a game that forces grouping, you'd BETTER have the community to support that scheme. EQ1 had it and thrived as a result. No one else since has been able to replicate that.

I am all for forced grouping. Honestly. It was my favorite part of EQ1 since I hated soloing with a burning passion (it was BORING and I don't play an MMO to solo). But I also hated wasted my time waiting for "the right classes" to log on or be available or able to group. It's the main reason I had so many accounts (8). It was far easier for me to grab up a couple friends and fill in any holes we had with my own characters. This way, if someone became available or logged in, I could just add them to the group replacing my "bot". Also, access to content factored in as well. If we're XPing in the right courtyard of the Plane of Fire and a casual player cleric logged in and went LFG, we couldn't consider them for our group because they wouldn't have access to PoF (as an example) or the LFG warrior wouldn't have the HP or AC to properly tank the mobs we were killing.

I've played all 4 archetypes you mentioned, to max level and beyond, in a game that forced grouping (70 cleric x2, 70 warrior, 70 wizard, 70 rogue, all with at least 500 and up to 917 AA points). I just don't think DDO is going to have the critical mass necessary to support a forced grouping model. It's especially going to be tough to find enough people with matching playstyles, playtimes, and goals to link up with IMO. That makes it so you either have to go with critical mass (see: Casual Collective, a guild in EQ2 with 2,000+ members that SOE itself had to act on) or just do without in many cases. And many current and former EQ1 players can tell you how GREAT the LFG game was. :sarcasm:

8ball: Yes, I totally agree. I am SO sick of ratings pandering, especially given the success of games that are M-rated (boy, that GTA series really flopped, did'nit?). I'm hoping Age of Conan comes off well and attracts a more mature (and hopefully, more affluent) audience so every game in the MMO niche can expand a bit more. Plus, as outdated as their previous game is, Funcom is big on innovating, not duplicating (quick, name one MMO that used instancing prior to Anarchy Online. Now, name 10 that used it after AO. I'd guess the latter is far easier to answer than the former). Gotta give 'em props for that.

[Titomancer]

Im loking forward to Age of Conan, hoping it doesnt blow camels.

[WingedAvenger]

If DDO was in the Forgotten Realms world, I *might* consider checking it out (since I used to be a big FR fanboi). Until then, I'm totally done with fantasy-themed MMORPGs. I've been there and done that with EQ and EQ2.

[Poison]

Btw, anybody got any info when NWN2 is supposed to be released?

[Sword]

Im loking forward to Age of Conan, hoping it doesnt blow camels.


Nono, Conan HITS camels. Haven't you seen the movie? :D

[Meltman]

I think Tito might have seen the wrong version...

[bpphantom]

Yeah, it's the guy in the background at the bottom of the stairs in the market molesting... wait, that was a lama. Nevermind, carry on.