New patch on test: Goobye perma-builds!

[Sword]

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2092861&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#2092861

[coldcut]

Not a huge surprise. Anyone who was living off of perma-builds after Invulnerability's uber-power got dinger was just working on borrowed time.

[Randomus]

o Added 50% ToHit debuff to Super Speed and Super Leap.

The heck? 50%? How are Super Leapers supposed to hit Fliers?

[Tarberetta]

Good, no more Perma-MoG

[Kurai Inago]

Well I don't mind about the removal of Perma-Builds, I do have to go, What the Hell at this.

o Decreased the Accuracy Buff gained from Invincibility.

That's how I hit things. If I lose that then I might just be screwed.

[Tsarmina]

Meh. Never believed in perma builds anyway... well except my perma debt but that's another flavor pie altogether.

[Cold Quake]

...

Guess I can respec out MoG, now. Or at least the slots.

[Darknesse]

The heck? 50%? How are Super Leapers supposed to hit Fliers?
Thats the problem I have with the whole thing.

[Libertyman]

being level 50 and done with PVP (Too much whineing) the change to elude isnt that big of a problem since I go the toggles/autos way ever since conserve power. but have they given SR a bone at all for eliminating the Perma Eluds builds? I ask this because anyone knows any mob with AOE or Cone usually beats a SR. but also the fact i had people breaking through my elude when i did use it in PVP and once thats broke through SR sucks.

[Blackbat]

Elude now also offers a Recovery boost

W00t. At least SR got something out of this deal. With Elude now not being able to be perma, the SR line needs to be reworked.

[Al Baron]

I have long since stopped caring about the balance changes to this game (too much trouble and you guys do that enough for a bagillion of me.)

That said, the ToHit debuff on Super Jump will at least make me stop playing T-I-Double G-ER with Filers when I know damn well to just activate Combat Jump and/or wait them out.

That or let our blaster(s) unleash PURE PAIN on them.

[The Widowed]

We get hit too much. We want increased Defense.

Or, failing that, perhaps the option for slotting minor Damage Resistance for the instances when we do get hit. Rolling with the punch, being as a willow before the storm and not as an oak...know what I mean?

By the way, you misspelled "Goodbye". :D

[Kurai Inago]

I have something to add about the new patch.

A New badge, Celebrant (It's listed as an Accolaide) will be recived by everyone who logs in during the month of May 2005

Celebrant
You have helped celebrate the One year anniversary of City Of Heroes

[The Widowed]

It'll be Widdy's first year of CoH too. You bet I'll get this badge. Even if it doesn't really do anything as an Accolade. :D

So why's Widdy not SL50 yet? I guess we're just slackers here. :P

[Kurai Inago]

Hmmm... that sounds like a thread to me "Why aren't you lvl 50 yet?"
I've been playing since last June, and Sonic isn't 50 yet cause I didn't start him till January plus I'm almost constantly grounded.

[Blackbat]

We get hit too much. We want increased Defense.

Or, failing that, perhaps the option for slotting minor Damage Resistance for the instances when we do get hit. Rolling with the punch, being as a willow before the storm and not as an oak...know what I mean?


Personally I wouldn't be opposed to the 'rolling with the punches' idea. It's been brought up alot in the past. But I think there is to much opposition for it to ever work. But maybe now with Elude being a situational power and not perma it might be something that gets looked at.

IMO I think the toggles and passives need a +DEF increase to account for the lack of Elude. Or at the very least don't make the recharge 17 minutes long on Elude, just take out the ability to use recharge enhancers in it. Even with Hasten and any buffs you get it's unlikely that you can make it perma without slotting for recharge.

[suburbanhell]

'Scuse my ignorance -- what's a permabuild?

[Kurai Inago]

A Perma Build is when a character is designed to have the best defensive power they can get, on at all times.

and on an unrelated note, could someone meet me on Test so I can transfer some inf.?

[suburbanhell]

Oh ok so this is basically bad for PvPers...so why is it that PVE has been effected at all? :eyebrow:

[The Widowed]

A Perma Build is when a character is designed to have the best defensive power they can get, on at all times.
Well, not necessarily the best. I've entertained thoughts of perma Practiced Brawler and perma Focused Senses (because the animation is so long). Making a Click power perma involves reducing the recharge time and/or extending the duration to the point where the power's durations "overlap". Making a Toggle perma involves reducing the Endurance cost to virtually nothing, or at least making it less than the Endy recharge rate...very easy to do if you have Stamina.

and on an unrelated note, could someone meet me on Test so I can transfer some inf.?

Sure. What time? Don't forget our appointment on test at 8:00 CST.... :)

[Kurai Inago]

That appointment is why, I want to change my costume to my new Gi, however, I need to transfer some Inf. For that, and anytime is good.

[The Widowed]

Sure thing. Sorry about the edit back there. :)

Will the transfer be from Sonic to Kurai, then? I take it the sale of SO's is involved in the Influence generation.

[Kurai Inago]

Sonic... to another Copy of Sonic. I used a Respec to sell all my enh on the copy I have now.

[Xanatos]

SR scrappers are going to have to fight to get this one fixed.

Elude wasn't overpowered. I have no idea why it is no longer possible to perma it.

Even though i'm a blaster i'll be cheering you guys on from the sidelines. I might be a big brownose to the devs but these changes are rediculous. (I won't post why as there's little chance of this post reaching anyone important)

I'm irritated the developers decided to remove perma builds now - when they've existed in the game for such a long time. If they had such a drastic affect in PvE than why are they only being changed now? If it's just due to PvP reasons than why does it also affect PvE?

The arena is more trouble than it's worth. Players should look forward to it rather than be concerned that they will have to totally remake their builds.

[Jade_Dragon]

The heck? 50%? How are Super Leapers supposed to hit Fliers?

Good question. I guess you turn off Super Leap as you sail past.

I've been saying for some time that Air Superiority needs to ignore the to hit penalty for Flying. Everything else can have the penalty, but since Air Superiority is SUPPOSED to be used to bring down fliers, make sure it can be used while flying. Might as well add Super Leap and Super Speed to that list now, too. (Super Speed really can't be used to attack a flier, but might as well leave it anyway)

Of all Powers, I'm surprised Super Speed got this debuff. It was my understanding that the devs MEANT for it to be used in combat.

[Darknesse]

I dunno. Personally, I'm happy they did it. If they are going to get rid of perma unstoppable, then why should the others be allowed?

[Blackbat]

Because without Elude, SR needs tweaking to make it on par with the other secondaries. I don't mind them doing what they did, I just think their timing sucks. Fix the rest of the set first, then get rid of the perma power.

[Jade_Dragon]

I was hoping that the nerfs to Elude would come with some boosts elsewhere, but obviously not... Oh, well, there is always tomorrow.

[Mahaf]

Making a Toggle perma involves reducing the Endurance cost to virtually nothing, or at least making it less than the Endy recharge rate...very easy to do if you have Stamina.
Yea... Unless you happen to have 6 toggles. :grr:

[Lorash]

woo! I'm ahead of the curve! I respecced out of Elude several months ago. It's the only power in SR that I don't have. I might take it at 49, but who knows how long that'll be ;)

[The Icy One]

None of this even really effects me, but even I'm getting tired of stuff losing it's overall effect, to many things are losing stuff.. and theres not enough gains.

[Clone Man]

o Added 50% ToHit debuff to Super Speed and Super Leap.

They need to make this PvP only. Why does it have to be game-wide; this change is extremely obnoxious! As a scrapper, I use super jump and super speed all the time and it adds a fun, and sometimes necesarry, dimension to my combat routine. This change will annoy the hell out of me if they implement it.

The arena is more trouble than it's worth. Players should look forward to it rather than be concerned that they will have to totally remake their builds.

True. This is how I'm starting to feel...

[Plasma Wisp]

And they said taking Force Bolt and Replusion Field was bad. Hahaha funny.

Still don't know what they mean with the Energy Melee powers for Tankers.

I am gonna get real popular with Wisp and Robbie.

[Sable Phoenix]

Accuracy debuff on Superspeed and Superleap? That's just ridiculous! Is this going to be PvE as well?

Congratulations dev team, you just killed my scrapper for me. The only way I have enjoyed playing a scrapper is with superspeed always on, tearing through groups of enemies in sweeping passes.

Oh, and more nerfs coming to Invul, hooray. Make my tank even less fun. It's not like the accuracy buff was anywhere close to overpowering in the first place after its nerfing in I3.

This bites.

[Plasma Wisp]

I keep hearing this whole "Invul's gimped" bit. I'm an invul tanker and I have absolutely no problems. Sure, I get hit, but that's expected. Some people need to calm down on being "The best" there is.

The superspeed thing is alittle bit much, but this is why it's on a server called "Test". Get on, and try it, and make helpful responces instead of complaining.

[Poison]

Wow, this actually affects Sabbath twice...
Though I was looking forward to perma-Elude, I only just got it, since I'm not used to it being perma, I won't really miss it.
The superspeed debuff though... I used to pull mobs by doing a superspeed attack, guess that won't work that well anymore. :grr:

[Freeze Warning]

Methinks this is a stab at jousting, a real problem for squishies in the arena. However, IMO, such a huge minus to accuracy on travel powers will suddenly make the hover/snipe blasters the problem. Without jousting, how do you stop a blaster at the top of the board sniping you to death, hiding under bushes, making everyone take flight/hover? I'm just not sure this was completely thought through. I wonder if the balance issues and setbacks are starting to make the time scale too uncomfortable for some people.

If jousting is the problem, it seems that a much easier and more elegant fix would be to only allow attacks to be 'qued' if your target is in range. It doesn't stop jousting, but it makes it difficult against a static target and near impossible against a moving one.

Freeze

[edit: hmm... seems I said the opposite of what I meant by adding a superfluous not in the second to last sentence. Well, it's fixed now]

[Sable Phoenix]

I don't care about arena stuff. Let all powers equal Brawl in the arena for all I care. Just keep the ugly influence of the arena out of the PVE game. That is what's so frustrating here.

[Sword]

'Scuse my ignorance -- what's a permabuild?

"Perma" is an expression for making a "click-power", like Hasten, recharge so fast it overlaps. Meaning that it's in effect allways on.

Now, some defensive sets, had as their last power a clik-power that was extremely powerfull, but also had a big drawback when it ended.

I'll use Invulns Unstoppable as example, since I'm most familiar with that set and it was the most blatant perma-build exploit.

Unstoppable makes you reach all the resistance caps with just 1-2 Resistance Enhancers in it. So for the two minutes it lasts, you're at max resistance. On top of that, it makes you regenrate Endurance at a very high rate.
When the power ends, you're reduced to 0 Endurance and 10% Health.
Lots of benefit for lots of risk. If the battle isn't finished when Unstoppable drops, you're pretty mcuh dead.

Now, stick some rechargers in it and suddenly it overlaps.
Which means that even though you're reduced to 10% Health and 0 End, you have allready started Unstoppable over again. So you're still at resistance caps and you're regenerating Endurence like a sunnovabitch.

Click Dull Pain and you're healed. You're back to being a god for another two mins.


Now, what this did. Was make you able to respec out of allmost all your other Invuln powers.

Unyilding Stance? Don't need it. Untoppable gives you huge mez protection.
Temp Invuln? Don't need it. You're at the Res cap with Unstoppable.
Resist Energies/Elements? At the cap with Unstoppable. Away it goes.

So, you could just throw away allmost your entire powerset in favour of one power.

In Issue 3, they made a lot of improvements to tankers overall and specifically to Invuln. They then increased the recharge time on Unstoppable to the level when you no longer could make it overlap.

That's the most horrible example of a perma-build.



Now, pemra-Moment of Glory (regen) and perma-Elude (Super Reflexes) wasn't as horrible as that, but they were obviously the same kind of beast.
Perma-MoG was just stupid andyway. The power makes you unable to regain health. So you're a regenerating hero that can't regenerate health. Makes sense?

Now perma-Elude is a bit special. Elude was originally made like "Phase Shift". You activated it and you became allmost untouchable. But ou couldn't attack. So it was an "Oh ****!" button that could end the combat for you at the click of a button.
SR was performing poorly compared to the other sets, so to boost it up to their level, the devs changed it so you could make it perma and be able to attack while it was active. That happened right after they took away perma-Unstoppable and has allways been one of the weirdest power-changes I've seen to date. Talk about half-assed band-aid fixes.

Anyway, now they've taken away perma-Elude. Which means SR is basically back where it was before it. Underperforming compared to the other sets.

[The Widowed]

Yea... Unless you happen to have 6 toggles. :grr:
I never said you have to perma-mogrify all of the toggles.... :P

[suburbanhell]

So I've kind of not paid attention to this whole arena thing and what not....PvP just isn't something I'm very interested in. That being said, when CoV comes out, if we don't have like, hours of practice in the arena taken care of are we going to get ganked by supervillains around every corner?

[Remianen]

So I've kind of not paid attention to this whole arena thing and what not....PvP just isn't something I'm very interested in. That being said, when CoV comes out, if we don't have like, hours of practice in the arena taken care of are we going to get ganked by supervillains around every corner?

I doubt it. Non-consensual PvP is easily the best way to destroy this (and every other) MMO. Games designed around PvP as a whole don't do good numbers (see: Shadowbane) and at this point, all the MMO developers want as big a part of the MMO audience as possible (given the profits EverQuest 1 churned out at its peak).

I say that because, even though I too have no desire to participate in PvP activity (I do it enough in RL), what I want (or what you want or what any other individual wants) is meaningless unless you're part of a larger whole. If there was as much money to be made by PvP games as PvE games, you'd see a ton of PvP MMOs out there. But there isn't (yet!) so there's not.

From what I understand, PvP in the post-CoV release era is going to be zone based, kinda like it is in WoW on non-PvP servers. If you're in certain areas, you can be ganked, otherwise, you're safe. Last I heard, Galaxy City and Atlas Park are going to be the equivalent of "safe zones" but those were the only two zones I heard spoken of specifically.

[Al Baron]

I have long since stopped caring about the balance changes to this game (too much trouble and you guys whine, bitch, debate, argue, suggest, and in the end show you have about as much passion (good or bad) as the dev team, which also suggest you guys would give anything to congratulate/kill them in person enough for a bagillion of me.)


Due to recent developments here and on the main boards (mainly on the main), fixed.

[suburbanhell]

I doubt it. Non-consensual PvP is easily the best way to destroy this (and every other) MMO. Games designed around PvP as a whole don't do good numbers (see: Shadowbane) and at this point, all the MMO developers want as big a part of the MMO audience as possible (given the profits EverQuest 1 churned out at its peak).

I say that because, even though I too have no desire to participate in PvP activity (I do it enough in RL), what I want (or what you want or what any other individual wants) is meaningless unless you're part of a larger whole. If there was as much money to be made by PvP games as PvE games, you'd see a ton of PvP MMOs out there. But there isn't (yet!) so there's not.

From what I understand, PvP in the post-CoV release era is going to be zone based, kinda like it is in WoW on non-PvP servers. If you're in certain areas, you can be ganked, otherwise, you're safe. Last I heard, Galaxy City and Atlas Park are going to be the equivalent of "safe zones" but those were the only two zones I heard spoken of specifically.

Makes sense. Where as Perez, Boomtown, anywhere on the map that has the ///// yellow and black bars on it would be free-for-alls, which as supervillain levels increase would probably end up being full time gank zones.

[Darknesse]

I don't know. PVP with random villian attacks doesn't seem too bad, as long as there is some auto exemplar system in place.

For those that want nothing to do with random SV attacks, I suggest adding a massive defense bonus and - ACC that kicks in when using travel powers for more than 5 seconds. That way, you don't get randomly scrubbed out unless you are looking for trouble instead of just going from A to B. Yes, I would include surge or whatever.

[suburbanhell]

Fully Agreed, if I'm just trying to get somewehre I shouldn't have to worry about that stuff.

[D'Arkaine]

I don't know. PVP with random villian attacks doesn't seem too bad, as long as there is some auto exemplar system in place.

For those that want nothing to do with random SV attacks, I suggest adding a massive defense bonus and - ACC that kicks in when using travel powers for more than 5 seconds. That way, you don't get randomly scrubbed out unless you are looking for trouble instead of just going from A to B. Yes, I would include surge or whatever.

well with the -acc to SS and SJ being for PvP and PvE, you're halfway there...

[Jade_Dragon]

Wow, this actually affects Sabbath twice...
Though I was looking forward to perma-Elude, I only just got it, since I'm not used to it being perma, I won't really miss it.
The superspeed debuff though... I used to pull mobs by doing a superspeed attack, guess that won't work that well anymore. :grr:

Actually, it will. Pulling doesn't care whether you hit or not. You may in some cases have to run in and pull again, but from my experience with Siphon Power (which doesn't do damage even if it does hit, so it's a doubly good pulling technique :D) misses should pull.

I still say Air Superiority should have the normal to hit, though. (Maybe Flurry for Super Speed, since it's related)

[Jade_Dragon]

Now perma-Elude is a bit special. Elude was originally made like "Phase Shift". You activated it and you became allmost untouchable. But ou couldn't attack. So it was an "Oh ****!" button that could end the combat for you at the click of a button.
SR was performing poorly compared to the other sets, so to boost it up to their level, the devs changed it so you could make it perma and be able to attack while it was active. That happened right after they took away perma-Unstoppable and has allways been one of the weirdest power-changes I've seen to date. Talk about half-assed band-aid fixes.

Anyway, now they've taken away perma-Elude. Which means SR is basically back where it was before it. Underperforming compared to the other sets.

My thoughts exactly. Sometimes I wonder if the devs are TRYING to contradict themselves. They go to all the trouble to say that Unstoppable shouldn't be perma and extend the recharge time to prevent it. Then they MAKE Elude perma. I couldn't figure out the logic at the time, and I STILL can't figure it out.

My hope was that since they KNEW that SR was underperforming, they'd boost it when they made Elude no longer perma. But that didn't happen. So I hope at least there's a fix coming.

[Darknesse]

well with the -acc to SS and SJ being for PvP and PvE, you're halfway there...
Ya. The only problem with this is that my average travel time is going to double as I wander around zones like a badass, HOPING someone starts something with me.

[Greblaja]

Well I don't mind about the removal of Perma-Builds, I do have to go, What the Hell at this.

o Decreased the Accuracy Buff gained from Invincibility.

That's how I hit things. If I lose that then I might just be screwed.

That one's got me nervous, too

[Sword]

That one's got me nervous, too

It's not a big problem. It was tested on the tanker boards and the lowering of Accuracy wasn't very much. You might consider an extra ToHitBuff in Invincie to be on the safe side though.

Here's the quote from States regarding that change:

From testing and datamining, Invincibility placed Invulnerability on a level way above the other defensive power sets. Decreasing the Accuracy Buff is a step towards bringing Invulnerability in line with the other sets.

Now, I can't get why they reduced the tohitbuff. The problem with Invuln is that you can max all Resistances and have very high defense. The max Resistances is fine, since you use a lot of slots and powers to do it. However, defense get very high by the use of just one power.
That power alone beats SR scrappers whole powerset now that Elude isn't perma anymore.

I mean, the only other tanker set that combines Res and Def in large amounts is Stone. And Stone actually pay a price for it in -speed and -recharge. How do we pay for our defenses? With +Accuracy?

[Astartus]

Great idea by the DEV's: PATCH NOTE EXPLANATIONS (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shibboleth&Number=2756521&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

Many things make more sense now.....

[Sword]

Yup, the more communication with the Devs, the better. Keeps us from having to second-guess them all the time. Hopefully they've realized what an assett the forum community can be if they only use us right.

[Greblaja]

Thanks for the info, Sword. Now that I think of it, I think there was some talk about this before my trip (tough to think about the game while abroad, never mind keeping up on the boards).

I just hope they are about done with the Invulnerability set.