Statesman posts findings on Scrapper testings

[Tsarmina]

Clicky me Dammit! (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shibboleth&Number=2738590&bodyprev=#Post2738590)

[Tarberetta]

Read through that.

That's getting alot better, but there's still a lot of situations that scrappers fare much worse.

[Blackbat]

I read in a thread on the official boards that they used inspirations while doing these tests. Or maybe it was the previous test, the one that they created a demo file from. Seems kinda stupid to use inspirations during a testing phase when you're trying to establish a baseline.

[Dark AngelHawk]

Poor DA coming in last. I like it honestly. You just gotta know what to get. Death Shourd is useless, an sg mate and myself tested it and hated this power. Either grab oppressive gloom or cloak of fear but not both as it is a waste. We're still testing out the self rez on DA. I'll let you know what we come up with. It's not too bad honestly as long as you know which ones to use. Let's say ur in a de mission, dont toggle the mezz resist(de dont mez) You can choose to have fear and cloak of shadows up if you wish or not. You should have on Dark embrace and murky cloud. DA is (in my opinon) better for a dark/dark scrapper cause you will have an end attack and two heal attacks then. Very rare do I run out of end from this. Just know how to use your powers and don't toggle things you don't need on :) They do need to fix death shroud as far as I am concerned. Again I'll put my opinons about the self rez after I am done testing it out. :D So far I've had fun on my dark/dark scrapper and I can kick butt.

[Darknesse]

Poor DA coming in last. I like it honestly. You just gotta know what to get. Death Shourd is useless, an sg mate and myself tested it and hated this power. Either grab oppressive gloom or cloak of fear but not both as it is a waste. We're still testing out the self rez on DA. I'll let you know what we come up with. It's not too bad honestly as long as you know which ones to use. Let's say ur in a de mission, dont toggle the mezz resist(de dont mez) You can choose to have fear and cloak of shadows up if you wish or not. You should have on Dark embrace and murky cloud. DA is (in my opinon) better for a dark/dark scrapper cause you will have an end attack and two heal attacks then. Very rare do I run out of end from this. Just know how to use your powers and don't toggle things you don't need on :) They do need to fix death shroud as far as I am concerned. Again I'll put my opinons about the self rez after I am done testing it out. :D So far I've had fun on my dark/dark scrapper and I can kick butt.

2 things.

1: Death Shroud is the best power in the DA set, and the only thing that REALLY seperates it from the others. You can literally clear out swarms of minions with a Souldrain + Deathshroud in a couple seconds.

2. Even with damage it deals, Da is horrible compared to the other sets.

Yes, you can kick butt, but not nearly as much as if you took another powerset. When you say its a good set, you are basically saying the Status Quo is acceptable. Fortunately, the devs testing has proved that DA is the worst of the sets, and hopefully it will get a boost or 3 to make it equal.

[Tsarmina]

Poor DA coming in last. I like it honestly. You just gotta know what to get. Death Shourd is useless...
But... I likes my DS. Sure it was difficult at lower lvls when all it did is draw all the aggro to me and get me killed alot... but I use it almost all the time now. I don't have any Souldrain or such to go with it but it's still good in my eyes.

[vyxzuw]

Yeah, was in a group today, and did a mission against Nemesis...and there were swarms of those evil robots. I jumped into a mob, hit Soul Drain...and was doing around 45 Damage per hit. (My Smite does around 145 or so...)

Well...wasn't long before they went off like firecrackers...(although, standing in a group of bombs, isn't a good idea... :chuckle: )

Yes, you can kick butt, but not nearly as much as if you took another powerset. When you say its a good set, you are basically saying the Status Quo is acceptable. Fortunately, the devs testing has proved that DA is the worst of the sets, and hopefully it will get a boost or 3 to make it equal.

Hmmm...being able to solo Invincible missions, and not dying, is the status quo?

Maybe for scrappers. (And tanks.) But what about blasters? Or controllers? Or defenders?

It seems that the Devs, will not being boosting DA to the other scrappers sets, but instead will be bringing the other sets DOWN to DA...

[Blue Bolt]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind them bringing the other sets down, I just want everything to be even

[Darknesse]

Yeah, was in a group today, and did a mission against Nemesis...and there were swarms of those evil robots. I jumped into a mob, hit Soul Drain...and was doing around 45 Damage per hit. (My Smite does around 145 or so...)

Well...wasn't long before they went off like firecrackers...(although, standing in a group of bombs, isn't a good idea... :chuckle: )



Hmmm...being able to solo Invincible missions, and not dying, is the status quo?

Maybe for scrappers. (And tanks.) But what about blasters? Or controllers? Or defenders?

It seems that the Devs, will not being boosting DA to the other scrappers sets, but instead will be bringing the other sets DOWN to DA...

No, I doubt it. Tanks and scrappers are supposed to solo and at higher levels should be able to solo invincible missions if played correctly. Fact is, the others don't need nerfing (except for invincibility maybe) but DA does need a boost.

[Mahaf]

Well, other than the Perma nerfs, they aren't doing anything to those other Scrapper sets. And, they didn't use the Perma sets in these tests, so obvisouly they don't think those sets are overpowered without Perma, or they would've nerfed them elsewhere. That's the way it seems to me, at least.

[Blackbat]

Seems to me they are just doing 'patch' jobs constantly. They thought Elude was to powerful, but instead of fixing SR and making it a set that can stand on it's own without Elude they just nerf it and considered it balenced.

Invuln might have needed a nerf, I can't comment on that, but was nerfing Invince the best way to do it? MoG was a power that should have never even been in the Regen set to begin with. Instead of fixing the power and making it fit in line with the rest of the set (Healing), they decided to just make it less effective.

I have no clue what DA needs, but they should take the time to do it right and not foul it up totally.

Granted this is all on the test server, but it's amazing that some of these changes even got that far.

[Dark AngelHawk]

You know I don't care about balance and what-not. I think it's cool to play the worst secondary scrapper out there. Not cause many people don't take it, just cause it's more of a challenge to play and in vid games a challenge to me is a great thing. I say bring on the nerfs make it tougher on me!! I always like a good challenge.

[vyxzuw]

I always like a good challenge.

Play a blaster...(Even a DA scrapper is safer to play than a blaster...Especially one that's not Devices...)

[Dark AngelHawk]

I have one I play here and there. Mostly sticking with my defenders and this scrapper. They go with my mains story more so I am trying to get them up there in lvls.

[Mahaf]

I have no clue what DA needs, but they should take the time to do it right and not foul it up totally.
DA needs what every other Scrapper secondary has... Specialization. SR has defense, Regen has healing, Invuln has resistance. As a DA, you can go with either Defense or Resistance majorly, and have the other one minorly. While this looks great on paper, hybrids never translate well into the game. The Jack-of-all-trades just isn't ever as powerful as the one who specializes.

Take Hunters in DAoC as a for instance. They were literally jacks-of-all-trades. They had pretty good melee, pretty good marksmanship, and pretty good magic. Yet, they were one of the weakest classes. This is what the DA set is, and it's why it's the weakest of the Scrapper secondaries.

[vyxzuw]

Devices is a jack-of-all trades set...and it's considered the best secondary.

Also, SR lost perma-Elude. And without it, it lost a LOT of power. It only has ~60% now. Not enough to keep up even with the current DA.

Inv, btw, is NOT specialized. It has a self heal (Dull Pain), and defense (Invinciblity). Being able to heal yourself, resist massive amounts of damage, and even dodge lots of attacks (You can hit 60%, with enough guys around you), is more of a uber jack of all trades.

Regen is specialized in healing. However, healing is actually a generalized damage mitigation. It works against ALL types of damage. No having to switch powers when facing different damage types. (And it also has SOME resistance.)

Only SR is truely specialized. (Only defense. No self heal, no resist...not even a little) And serves as an example of the problems that specialized sets have. When you take some of their power, they have nothing to fall back on.

Inv can take a hit to Invinciblity. Even if you REMOVED the power, they'd still do well. (75% res, and a self heal, isn't bad.) (I'm not saying that they should remove it, only saying that they can survive it's removal.)

SR can't really take the Elude hit. They have only their toggles to fall back on. And 60% isn't enough.

DA can do well. The two problems it has: No knocback resistance. (We have to take Acro) And HORRIBLE end drain. (Trying to not use powers at high levels, is like an Inv scrapper choosing to not use some powers to save end. It doesn't work well for Invincible missions against multiple damage types.) (Or for a SR scrapper to not use some toggles. In higher missions, it will cause problems.) You CAN get away with not using toggles, but you pay a price. With an end reduction to our powers (and knockback protection) we'd do well.

I have one I play here and there. Mostly sticking with my defenders and this scrapper. They go with my mains story more so I am trying to get them up there in lvls.

Sorry if I sounded like I was attacking you. I'm just kinda tired of hearing how DA is so bad. It MAY be the worst scrapper set (with perma-Elude being removed...it may be ahead of SR now), but it is FAR better than many other AT power sets. (Also, you didn't say that DA was a bad set. Just the worst scrapper set.) Personally, I don't see DA as a challenge. (It was when there was no stacking. And CoF was the old fear...) I don't consider Tanks a challenge. (They may be slow...but they're safe.) IMO Blasters are the challenge. To get through a level without getting ANY debt, at higher levels, is REAL hard, if not almost impossible. (I've gotten through levels with my scrapper with no debt. Even with the old DA system.)

...Anywho, end rant.

[Dark AngelHawk]

Sorry if I sounded like I was attacking you. I'm just kinda tired of hearing how DA is so bad. It MAY be the worst scrapper set (with perma-Elude being removed...it may be ahead of SR now), but it is FAR better than many other AT power sets. (Also, you didn't say that DA was a bad set. Just the worst scrapper set.) Personally, I don't see DA as a challenge. (It was when there was no stacking. And CoF was the old fear...) I don't consider Tanks a challenge. (They may be slow...but they're safe.) IMO Blasters are the challenge. To get through a level without getting ANY debt, at higher levels, is REAL hard, if not almost impossible. (I've gotten through levels with my scrapper with no debt. Even with the old DA system.)

...Anywho, end rant.

No need to apologize. I never said I didn't like DA, in fact I love how it's working with my char. Fits perfectly in the story and I enjoy playing her.

[Mahaf]

Also, SR lost perma-Elude. And without it, it lost a LOT of power. It only has ~60% now. Not enough to keep up even with the current DA.

Sorry if I sounded like I was attacking you. I'm just kinda tired of hearing how DA is so bad. It MAY be the worst scrapper set (with perma-Elude being removed...it may be ahead of SR now).
Actually, the tests the devs run where DA came in dead last, there was no Perma-Elude, Perma-MoG, nor Perma-Unstoppable. SR still came in about even with Regen, Invuln was way high still, and DA was dead last, and by a good amount. That's the facts. It is the weakest right now. I'm not saying it's a bad or unplayable set (Mahaf is DM/DA), just that it's the weakest of the Scrapper secondaries even without the permas.

EDIT- I had Regen and Invuln mixed up, sorry about that. Invuln was the one that still did a lot better than any of the others in the test.

[vyxzuw]

That's the facts. It is the weakest right now.

Wrong. That's the result of the test. (And we don't know how it was run.)

The thing with DA, is it's easy to mess it up.

With Inv, you slot res, and try to hit the cap. (Just using Invincibility helps...even with no slots.) (They're build had enough Smash/Lethal to hit the cap. Other damage types come in later. And with Unyielding and RE with slots, they have enough to handle that. Dull Pain came up often enough. And Maneuvers, Tough Hide and Invincibility gave enough defense.) Even with some questionable slotting, they had a decent build.

Regen, slot for healing. Hmmm...6 slotted healing...and more healing..and even more healing on top of that. Plus Quick revovery AND Stanima meant they had enough end. True, there was some other wierd stuff, but again a decent build.

SR, slot for Defense. The Active defense powers were slotted up. (40% from those.) Stealth was slotted (another 15%). So, a total of 55%. Another 5% from Combat Jumping. (60% total) And around slot or two in the passives (12% for those.) So that 72% so far. Hasten gives another 5% and is perma. So, that's 77%. Stanima is of course slotted for end. Note that it also has Health. Thus giving it some self-healing. A decent build. (Slotted better, they could have had a better defense.)

DA, slot for...

And there's the problem with the test. For one, they don't have Cloak of Darkness. (no Defense) They slotted CoF for Fear (when the acc debuff is the power's real purpose). The resists have a decent amount of slots, and Dark Regen isn't slotted that bad. Death Shroud has no acc enhancement (Although, the build has Tactics...but that's not enough to equal a Acc SO. And without DM's Soul Drain, it'll miss too much to be really helpful.) Also, there is no knockback resistance. (No acro.) This means that unlike the other builds, the DA scrapper would spend some time standing up. (Cutting down on attacks...and thus taking more damage.) Notice also: Conserve power. Even with Stanima 6 slotted, they used plenty of end reducers, and had to use Conserve Power also. (ie. End problems.)

The problem with the test, is that they didn't try for uber builds. However, without a good build for DA, you WILL have problems. The other powers have some leeway for bad selections. (For instance, you can slot your resists past the cap, or spend more slots than you need to, and slot ineffiecently, and still be decent.) They didn't use the powers right, and it suffered.

[Lorash]

One thing that bugs me, as my main is an SR, is when I log in with my Invuln scrapper or tank, is that Invuln has both Invincibility and Tough Hide for Defence, and SR has no DR at all.

I know I flog this pony whenever it comes around, but spending so much time on my face with Oly the last few days is really starting to irk me big time. I'm feeling as squishy as an Electric/Electric Blaster lately. :eyebrow:

[Mahaf]

Wrong. That's the result of the test. (And we don't know how it was run.)
Right, and since that's what the devs are going to go by, that's what we'll go by. That makes sense, doesn't it?

DA, slot for...

And there's the problem with the test. For one, they don't have Cloak of Darkness. (no Defense) They slotted CoF for Fear (when the acc debuff is the power's real purpose). The resists have a decent amount of slots, and Dark Regen isn't slotted that bad. Death Shroud has no acc enhancement (Although, the build has Tactics...but that's not enough to equal a Acc SO. And without DM's Soul Drain, it'll miss too much to be really helpful.) Also, there is no knockback resistance. (No acro.) This means that unlike the other builds, the DA scrapper would spend some time standing up. (Cutting down on attacks...and thus taking more damage.) Notice also: Conserve power. Even with Stanima 6 slotted, they used plenty of end reducers, and had to use Conserve Power also. (ie. End problems.)

The problem with the test, is that they didn't try for uber builds. However, without a good build for DA, you WILL have problems. The other powers have some leeway for bad selections. (For instance, you can slot your resists past the cap, or spend more slots than you need to, and slot ineffiecently, and still be decent.) They didn't use the powers right, and it suffered.
One thing, they didn't try for uber builds in any of the secondaries, and DA still came out dead last. Why would we have to pick our most uber build to compare to an average build of the other Scrapper secondaries? That's not balanced. Two, I shouldn't need to take Acrobatic/Tough/Weave/Conserve Power just to measure up to the other Secondaries. They don't have to take all that, so why should I? What you're proposing here is that DA Scrappers must take everything and slot it a particular way and play a particular way just to COMPARE to an AVERAGE (Read: Not the best) build of the other secondaries. That's not balance.

[vyxzuw]

Right, and since that's what the devs are going to go by, that's what we'll go by. That makes sense, doesn't it?

That's an assumption, that that was the only test, and that your analysis is their analysis.

One thing, they didn't try for uber builds in any of the secondaries, and DA still came out dead last.

For Inv, they chose to not take: Untoppable...that's it.
For Regen, they chose to not take: MoG (Fast Healing isn't listed...but you have to choose it at level one. So we can only assume they simply didn't list it, as they did not slot it.) So again, only the last power wasn't picked.
For SR: Elude, and that's it. Again the last power.
For DA: Cloak of Darkness, Oppressive Gloom, and Soul Transfer...They want to test DA, and leave out a THIRD of the powers?

Slotting.
For Inv: They have 85.875% S/L (Capped to 75% for scrappers. So they overslotted...), 45% F/C, 51% E/D. Which is okay. HOWEVER, they have made up for some underslotting and overslotting, by having Defense. 13% base, plus 6.75% per villan. So, at least 19.75 for one guy. With seven guys, you hit 60.25%...(And they had more than 20 at a time...) Then, they also slotted Dull Pain with 5 recharge (Plus time from Hasten). So, is this an 'uber-build'? Maybe not, but it is certainly a good one.

For Regen: Int and IH 6-slotted for healing. (Fast Healing with one slot...unlisted) Health with one heal slot. Recont with 6-heals. Dull Pain 3 heals. (Those could use recharge, IMO, but heals work too...) Stanima and QR for LOTS of end. Hasten made perma...And a bit of Res from Resilience: 9% (Not much, but some none the less.) So...this isn't an 'uber-build'? Maybe not...but that'd be more from the attack power choices, than the defense powers.

For SR: They didn't slot the passives. But DID slot stealth. Plus taking Health, and Focused Accuracy. (Which allows them to slot the attacks without a need for ACC...thus increasing damage...) Also, Perma-Hasten, and CJ for added defense. Seems like a pretty good build to me. (No Perma-Elude of course...so maybe not an 'uber-build'.)

For DA: DE, MC, and OS. Sort of what I have...but I don't have Conserve Power. (I will have, anyways, 4 res and 2 end reducers. So, it's not that bad.) DR, not bad. The 2 recharge, plus perma-Hasten, isn't bad. Tactics...so they don't miss. Or that's the theory. However, against +2 and +4, Tactics not slotted with To hit buffs, won't help much. (They use Build Up with a to-hit buff...but I'm not sure how the recharge is, and whether one plus perma-H will keep it up.) I'd imagine that the build was missing a lot...thus cutting down on damage, and thus, it was taking more hits. Conserve Power...NOT perma-ed. Thus, it wasn't keeping end up.

Finally, the real problems.
CoF...with Fear slotted...WHY? With Ripper, DS, and Spine Burst, you were constantly hitting everything...thus they were constantly being able to attack, thus it was USELESS. If they had slotted ACC debuffs instead, the power would have been good. (No powers in the other sets were slotted with useless slots. Even not putting recharges in Recon and DP for Regen, wasn't a big deal, since at least the heal slots helped. But the fear didn't do anything...2 wasted slots.)

CoD. No defense...NONE. They would have been better off with CoD, CoF, OS, DR and DS. Slot CoD for defense. OS for...well nothing really. CoF for acc Debuff. And with DR, you would heal any damage taken. DS plus Ripper and SB would do plenty of AoE damage. (With the missing powers, they can take FA, and have plenty of acc.) And, with only these powers, plus CP, they have no end problems. But, instead, they chose to not have any defense. As any SR scrapper knows, having some defense isn't good enough. It's a LOT of Def, or don't bother. Without CoD, CoF isn't useful. CoD gives 10% base Def. 20% with 5 slots. Add that with CoF's ACC Debuff, and you have a nice defense.

OG. They don't need this power. However, the disorient combined with Fear, means that they're held. They are disoriented, but fear overwrites the stun, and holds them, until you attack, but since the stun is in place, they can't attack. Thus, they are held. With Health slotted as they have, the cost isn't much. However, the power isn't needed. (However, as I've said, the other sets had eight out of nine powers. The ninth being the 'uber' power. Since that's Soul Transfer for DA, it's not a problem us not having it. However, Soul Transfer would have helped a lot too.)

So, bad slotting, and missing powers. Poor ACC, end problems (which is a normal problem for DA). Hardly a good build.

Why would we have to pick our most uber build to compare to an average build of the other Scrapper secondaries?

That's the thing. We we're given an average build. We were given a build with two less powers than they had, and poor slotting. All I ask, is a test where we can use CoD (one more power) and have some different slotting. They built GOOD builds for the other set. Not the UBER build, but GOOD ones. Ones able to take on +4 mobs. Hardly average.

Two, I shouldn't need to take Acrobatic/Tough/Weave/Conserve Power just to measure up to the other Secondaries.

Tough, Weave? What? Where? No Tough or Weave listed.

Acro. Yes, I aggree. We need knockback res.
And CP? Again, I aggree. We need less end drain. The test SHOWS we need it. Even with CP, they STILL put end reducers in the attacks.

I also don't use CP for my scrapper. I can still solo Inv missions. So, I measure up. (I do have Acro. But I don't need it per se.)

They don't have to take all that, so why should I?

Many Scrappers take CP. The SR scrapper could've used it. (They had a LOT of End reducers, including in their attacks.) Inv scrappers can use it. (Unless they have Unstoppable, they have end problems too. Also, again end reducers in their attacks.) Regen doesn't. But many people take Tough and Weave to get some Def and Res for the set. CP is used in many uber builds. As well as Tough and Weave.

The SR scrapper, btw, HAD to take Stealth to compete with the others. Is that fair?

What you're proposing here is that DA Scrappers must take everything and slot it a particular way and play a particular way just to COMPARE to an AVERAGE (Read: Not the best) build of the other secondaries.

Wrong. I said Just CoD, CoF, OS, DR, and DS could compete. Five powers out of nine. And 'Paticular Way' is not slotting useless enhancements. And Average? Perhaps by your definiton: (Read: Not the best) But then again a build with only pool powers and the first power in the secondary set, is average. By your definition. I believe Average should mean middle of the road.

A capped S/L res, and 13% base defense, plus self healing is middle of the road?

Fully slotted healing is middle of the road?

77% defense is middle of the road? (With 5 def slots in the active and passive powers, you get only 60%...)

You compare that, to a build with a missing defensive power, a poorly slotted CoF, and poor accuracy? You call a build like that AVERAGE?

I call it poor.
That's not balance.

[Mahaf]

One, I don't really need to know what every stat and its percentages are (Not saying I don't look at percentages, but I don't need to know how fast the guy runs with a single +3 Run enhancer ;)).... That made that post incredibly long...

Two, no, they didn't have good builds for Regen, Invuln, or SR. Unstoppable, MoG, and Elude would have upped the numbers those Scrappers could take by a LOT, even WITHOUT perma. You would've seen DA have their doors blown off if the other builds had taken Elude, MoG, or Unstoppable. Those powers, at one time, were make or break for a lot of people on those sets. So now that they're not perma, they're totally useless and don't affect these tests? Wrong. Those three powers would've upped the performance of the sets against ANY villain group, at any level. It's like saying that you don't need a microwave, you heat things up just as fast with a stove.. It makes no sense. Add those three powers in, and what you've got are hilarious margins between those sets and DA.

Statesman even says that he's picked average builds for these tests... Not GOOD, average, middle of the road builds. Are you going to argue with the group of people who CREATED the game (And can datamine FAR better than you or anyone else playing ever could) as to what would be an actual run-of-the-mill build? DAs were way behind in these tests. Thus, if you were to take the best DA build, I'm sure we could match up to the others' average builds.

EDIT-
That's an assumption, that that was the only test, and that your analysis is their analysis.
Right, so Statesman looks at this and goes "Hmm, even though the DA Scrapper could take on nowhere near the amount the other Scrapper secondaries can take, I don't think it's behind them in terms of effectiveness at all. In fact, we might need to nerf it a bit. O_o

[Darknesse]

2 things to note.

1: It seems that the reason the Devs didn't take those 3 powers in DA is because they didn't want to run out of endurance every 15 seconds while attacking.

2: Had the Devs taken the final powers, the test would have been even more lopsided against DA, since out of all the final powers, DA has the only one that is useless in that kind of test.

[Mahaf]

2 things to note.

1: It seems that the reason the Devs didn't take those 3 powers in DA is because they didn't want to run out of endurance every 15 seconds while attacking.

2: Had the Devs taken the final powers, the test would have been even more lopsided against DA, since out of all the final powers, DA has the only one that is useless in that kind of test.
Aye, me and you had a lengthy discussion about them taking Assault/Tactics. These two toggles are also draining, thus taking the other toggles would've made the DA Scrapper eat through influence two times faster than what their build did. That's the real problem for DA, anyways. We have WAY too much endurance drain just to get the defenses we need to compete.

[vyxzuw]

Are you going to argue with the group of people who CREATED the game (And can datamine FAR better than you or anyone else playing ever could) as to what would be an actual run-of-the-mill build?

You tell me. That's why I posted those numbers. Do they look run-of-the-mill? Does DA?

Thus, if you were to take the best DA build, I'm sure we could match up to the others' average builds.

The BEST DA build? You call CoF, CoD, OS, DR and DS the BEST build?

Begging you pardon, but they created the good non-perma Uber power builds. A build with a higher defense than can be obtained with only the secondary powers. A Inv build with a capped S/L and an ability to hit the same defense as a SR scrapper using only their secondary set. And a Regen scrapper with fully slotted heals.

That, versus a build with missing powers, and bad slotting.

Right, so Statesman looks at this and goes "Hmm, even though the DA Scrapper could take on nowhere near the amount the other Scrapper secondaries can take, I don't think it's behind them in terms of effectiveness at all. In fact, we might need to nerf it a bit.

You do know they nerfed CoF right?

1: It seems that the reason the Devs didn't take those 3 powers in DA is because they didn't want to run out of endurance every 15 seconds while attacking.

Dark, they took Assault and Tactis. They couldn't switch that for CoD? And, btw, OG would have prevented people from attacking AT ALL. (And OG doesn't have a big end drain.) Also, they had to spend more energy using DR to heal, since they were being hit more. Thus using more energy than if they had used CoD.

But, my point, is that they chose to compare the other three sets using EIGHT powers, versus DA using only SIX.

2: Had the Devs taken the final powers, the test would have been even more lopsided against DA, since out of all the final powers, DA has the only one that is useless in that kind of test.

True. Which is why they nerfed Perma uber powers. (They needed to show the tests to justify nerfs to the other powers. After all, they nerfed Invincibility, and haven't said they're revoking the further Regen nerf.) They already KNEW about the ninth level powers, and felt that everyone else knew also.

Aye, me and you had a lengthy discussion about them taking Assault/Tactics.

The other problem, which I mentioned, was the poor ACC of that build. Tactics, without any Tohit buffs, is not equal to an ACC SO. Thus, they were MISSING attacks. Thus not doing as much damage. (FA would have been better.)

Keep in mind, however, that the mobs they were taking about, were impressive in their own right. How many other AT can solo mobs that size?

I've said before, that it seems that they will nerf the OTHER sets DOWN, not DA UP. Considering they're nerfing CoF, they must also feel that even DA is above what it should be...

(So please refrain from saying that the devs know what they're doing.)

[Mahaf]

You do know they nerfed CoF right?
They nerfed CoF for PvP, and they carry it over to PvE. I've never been a fan of this, buy what can ya do here? They did NOT think CoF was overpowered in PvE, they just didn't feel like going through the trouble of making the change PvE only.

The BEST DA build? You call CoF, CoD, OS, DR and DS the BEST build?
No, I call it a middle of the road DA build, just like I call all the other builds they tested. I was stating what you were trying to say, if you tested our best build with those other builds, we'd be about equal. That's not balance.

Begging you pardon, but they created the good non-perma Uber power builds.
No, those builds were average. You take the end powers WITHOUT perma, and those builds would be a lot better (Good). They would've been able to take many more mobs. This is WITHOUT perma.

I've said before, that it seems that they will nerf the OTHER sets DOWN, not DA UP. Considering they're nerfing CoF, they must also feel that even DA is above what it should be...
Right, which is why I only say DA is the weakest set, not that it's gimped. I even say it's playable. I think we just might agree here, however different the paths that bring us to our conclusions.

EDIT- By the way, I dunno if CoD is that great a power to take. 6-slotting it with +3 Defense SOs gives a 23.8% Defense bonus. Not much at all really considering it has its endurance drain to pile on top of the already endurance-heavy DA set.

[vyxzuw]

They nerfed CoF for PvP, and they carry it over to PvE. I've never been a fan of this, buy what can ya do here? They did NOT think CoF was overpowered in PvE, they just didn't feel like going through the trouble of making the change PvE only.

Then that goes against what they said. As they say they won't nerf a power in PvE just because of PvP. So...either they lied about that. Or they think CoF is too powerful. (Or they just don't like the new fear as a toggle.)

No, I call it a middle of the road DA build, just like I call all the other builds they tested. I was stating what you were trying to say, if you tested our best build with those other builds, we'd be about equal. That's not balance.

Wrong. I'm saying that if you give us a build comparable to what they had, that we'd match up at least to SR. A middle of the road SR build has around 60% defense. They had 77%. They had 8 out of 9 powers. We had 6.

I'm saying, if they made SR like that, and say, DIDN'T use stealth, would they have lived? What if they put end reducers in Instant Healing, instead of healing slots? (Poorly slotting, like Fear, instead of ACC debuff.)

What they did, was the equivalent of testing tank builds. And giving an Ice Tank Dam Resist instead of defense enhance. (Which gives a big Ice Resist, and crap to S/L.)

I don't ask for the best DA build. I ask for a similar build to what they did for the other sets. (Replaceing those Fear with Tohit Debuffs. Dropping Tactics and Assault, and slotting a ACC in their powers, and taking CoD. You can drop some dam resist in MC for slots in CoD. Or...just take CoD, and don't slot it.)

I even asked for a build with just 5 powers: CoF, CoD, OS, DR, and DS. Hardly the best build. It would have done better. (More end, they have slots to put some ACC instead of end in the attacks. etc.)


No, those builds were average.

Again, 77% in SR is average? When the most you can reach is 66% with fully slotted secondary powers?

They picked powers that would help SR. They tried for a good build, without Elude.

But, with DA, they seemed to try to pick bad. (How many builds for DA, DON'T have CoD? Some drop MC, but CoD?)

Right, which is why I only say DA is the weakest set, not that it's gimped.

This is where we differ. I don't think DA is the weakest set. (At least after the perma-nerf.) I feel that SR is. They picked Stealth, in order to give SR more defense than it normally had.

If they wanted to test the Secondary powers, they should have avoided the power pool as much as possible. (After all, those power pools powers aren't SUPPOSED to be must-haves, according to the devs. Even Stanima, isn't supposed to be must have. Thus, they should try to avoid those powers.)

With only 60-66% defense, SR would have suffered more. (And with no Stanima, it would have felt end problems.)

Regen didn't use any power pools really. Thus it was truely tested. (And perhaps explains why they may still nerf it.)

Inv, didn't really NEED the power pool. It just helped...or allowed the devs to pick crazy powers.

I think we just might agree here, however different the paths that bring us to our conclusions.

I aggree on a some things.

One: Perma-ninth powers allow the other sets to achieve a level that DA can NEVER achieve.

Two: DA has end problems...(Beyond any Scrapper set.)

Three: DA needs Knockback res. (It's bad enough we have to take CoD and OS, and MC for end protection...but having to also take a power pool, to get what most sets have in ONE power, is silly.)

Four: Inv and Regen are WAY above us.

However, the problem with the test, is that SR looks more powerful than it is. Thus giving them allowance to nerf Elude, without giving anything back. That worries me.

I'd also like to know just how they even HIT those numbers. (And why DA had a better test against +4 than +2...)

EDIT: It's CoD WITH CoF.

[Mahaf]

Though they have said they won't nerf PvE just for PvP, you can't tell me many DA Scrappers were overpowered with CoF. To make that work, you couldn't take Death Shroud, which, when combined with Soul Drain, takes care of most minions anyways. The Scraptroller thing wasn't as bad as the devs made it out to be. I actually use Murky Cloud lots, seeing as how at least 8 out of 10 villain groups do substantial fire/cold/energy damage. I don't see why you wouldn't. I would NOT replace a 64% resistance to that with a 23% defense, knowing the cap resistance isn't much higher. Not to mention the endurance drain isn't as bad, unless my memory doesn't serve me well.

Another hole is, if you tested the sets without any pool powers (Without Stamina) DA would've been about two times as worse off. Without Stamina, they wouldn't have been able to run those toggles without constantly losing endurance. It would've eventually drained their endurance to nothing, even if they were just standing there (Believe me I've had Mahaf's Stamina enhancers go red, you can't run 5).

[Darknesse]

This is where we differ. I don't think DA is the weakest set. (At least after the perma-nerf.) I feel that SR is. They picked Stealth, in order to give SR more defense than it normally had.

You don't honestly believe that do you? Seriously. Look at the numbers for the best builds.. or better yet, test it yourself. You and your build against a variety of mobs when compared to a SR scrapper against a Variety of mobs.

I think that Stealth is a good pick, as it saves you a power pick and makes it so you dont have to take both passives, since you can just slot Stealth instead.

[Mahaf]

I aggree on a some things.

One: Perma-ninth powers allow the other sets to achieve a level that DA can NEVER achieve.

Two: DA has end problems...(Beyond any Scrapper set.)

Three: DA needs Knockback res. (It's bad enough we have to take CoD and OS, and MC for end protection...but having to also take a power pool, to get what most sets have in ONE power, is silly.)

Four: Inv and Regen are WAY above us.

However, the problem with the test, is that SR looks more powerful than it is. Thus giving them allowance to nerf Elude, without giving anything back. That worries me.

I'd also like to know just how they even HIT those numbers. (And why DA had a better test against +4 than +2...)

EDIT: It's CoD WITH CoF.
Didn't have much time to reply earlier, so let me reply to this now. We're agreeing in every way, then, except for one. While I do agree SR needs compensation, I don't believe it's the weakest. DA and SR may be roughly even, though, if SR doesn't have a slight edge.

[vyxzuw]

Didn't have much time to reply earlier, so let me reply to this now. We're agreeing in every way, then, except for one. While I do agree SR needs compensation, I don't believe it's the weakest. DA and SR may be roughly even, though, if SR doesn't have a slight edge.

Before, you were saying that DA and SR weren't even close to even. (The test says they aren't. That's what I've been argueing.)

Though they have said they won't nerf PvE just for PvP, you can't tell me many DA Scrappers were overpowered with CoF.

Doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the Devs think. And the Devs have said they feel that DA is on par with Regen...REGEN!

I would NOT replace a 64% resistance to that with a 23% defense, knowing the cap resistance isn't much higher.

Here's some numbers. First, let's take a mix of damage types. Hits of 100pts, of s/l and 100 of f/c/e/n.

Now, the build they had, had one Acc debuff in CoF. (25% base, plus 33% SO so 33 1/3%) However, replacing those two Fear with ACC debuff SOs, bring it to 50%. (This is the BIGGEST problem with their build...bad slotting.)

So, let's take an attack with an 80% chance to hit.
Theirs: 80*2/3=53 1/3%
Ours: 80*1/2=40%
~13% difference so far.
Now, add 20% def to our second build.
40-20=20%

Against S/L:
You take ~53 damage. I take 20. (You have no s/l unless you take DE also...which would have 45% res.)
With DE: 53*(1-.45)=29.15 (9.15 higher than CoD.)

Against F/C/E:
Well, it's NOT 64% MC base is: 26%. Double is 52%.
So, for you, it's 53*(1-.52)=25.44 (5.44 higher)

Against N:
You get 15 from DE, and 15 from MC: 60% (Perhaps this is what you were thinking?)
So, 53*(1-.6)=21.2 (1.2 higher)

Note: To get this, you ned TWO powers. MC AND DE. While I only need CoD. (Def affects all types of damage...except AoE.)

Against AoE. (For Completeness):
Ours: 40%.

Of course, you may argue, that you could slot CoF for Tohit Debuffs also. (However, to do this, you have to argue that the devs slotted poorly...thus making my point.)

This would give you 40% instead of 53%.
So, S/L: 40*(1-.45)=22 (still 2 higher)
F/C/E: 40*(1-.52)=19.2 (.8 lower)
N: 40*(1-.6)=16 (4 lower)

So, with the exception of Negative damage, we come out pretty even. (But again, I have ONE Power, but you have TWO. Also, I have Imm res, while you do not...although, you do have end drain res.)

It would've eventually drained their endurance to nothing, even if they were just standing there (Believe me I've had Mahaf's Stamina enhancers go red, you can't run 5).

Yes, but I'll post a build after this, my CoD, CoF, DR, DS, OS build. (Well, not mine, as I don't run it...but I thought it up.)

Also, running FF, FS, Ev, and Stealth, isn't exactly end friendly.

I'll be posting the build in my next post...

[vyxzuw]

First, I'll be comparing to SRs build. As I want to show their 'evenness'.

Lunge (1 damage)
Spine Burst (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Impale (3 damage, 1 end reduction)
Quills (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Ripper (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Throw Spines (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Focused Fighting (5 defense, 1 end reduction)
Focused Senses (5 defense, 1 end reduction)
Agile (1 defense)
Practiced Brawler (1 recharge)
Dodge (1 defense)
Lucky (2 defense)
Quickness (1 run speed)
Evasion (5 defense, 1 end reduction)
Stealth (5 defense, 1 end reduction)
Hurdle (1 jump)
Health (2 heal)
Stamina (6 recovery)
Combat (1 end reduction)
Super Jump (1 end reduction)
Hasten (6 recharge)
Focused Accuracy (3 to hit buff, 3 end reduction)

First, replace FF with CoD (1 end, 5 def)
Replace FS with CoF (3 end, 3 ACC debuff)
Evasion with DS (1 end, 1 acc, 4 dam...or however you want to slot it.)
I get CJ as they do also.
Replace Health with DR, and take the slot from Lucky: (3 end) It recharges due to hasten, and has ACC due to FA.
OS for PB: (1 End)
Stanima, why not...
Hasten, and SJ, same (yeah perma!)
FA (Sure, why not...)
I know, have Dodge, Lucky, and Quickness to replace.
Keeping Hurdle...to be fair.
Agile is replaced with DE, but NOT used.
Stealth is same.

So Far:
Lunge (1 damage)
Spine Burst (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Impale (3 damage, 1 end reduction)
Quills (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Ripper (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Throw Spines (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
CoD (5 defense, 1 end reduction)***
CoF (3 Acc Debuff, 3 end reduction)***
DE (who cares...)***
OS (1 end)***
Dodge (1 defense)---to be rep
Lucky (1 defense)---to be rep
Quickness (1 run speed)---to be rep
DS (fully slotted...)***
Stealth (5 defense, 1 end reduction)
Hurdle (1 jump)
DR (3 end)***
Stamina (6 recovery)
Combat (1 end reduction)
Super Jump (1 end reduction)
Hasten (6 recharge)
Focused Accuracy (3 to hit buff, 3 end reduction)

For fun, I'll rep Dodge with Swift.
Lucky with Health (only the base slot.)
Quickness with Acro. (Yeah...stupid no knockback...grrrr)

So: Total:
Lunge (1 damage)
Spine Burst (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Impale (3 damage, 1 end reduction)
Quills (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Ripper (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
Throw Spines (5 damage, 1 end reduction)
CoD (5 defense, 1 end reduction)***
CoF (3 Acc Debuff, 3 end reduction)***
DE (who cares...)***
OS (1 end)***
Swift (meh) ***
Health (heal) ***
Acro (1 end) ***
DS (fully slotted...)***
Stealth (5 defense, 1 end reduction)
Hurdle (1 jump)
DR (3 end)***
Stamina (6 recovery)
Combat (1 end reduction)
Super Jump (1 end reduction)
Hasten (6 recharge)
Focused Accuracy (3 to hit buff, 3 end reduction)

That's 45% defense. (20+15+5+5) (CoD, Stealth, CJ, Hasten)
And 50% to hit debuff. (At least, if CoF IS actually 25% base...)

So, against a 100% to hit...that's 100/2=50-45=5% Woohoo!

Note: that's only melee and range, not AoE.
However, CoF affect ALL attacks, even AoE...so we have an equivalent Def of 50% (for 100% Acc...it's really half the acc of ther opponent...)

Note: Unlike SR, we have a self heal...and extra damage. And 37.5% Psi res (from OS...the base.)

Yeah, us!

[Darknesse]

Well, except you are missing an important point.

The Debuff from COF is PBAOE, and cannot be added to ranged defense values really.

So, you have a 45% defense at best vs range vs some huge amount.

You aren't taking a few other factors into account when considering defensive sets, including the fact that PB is a click power, and that when slotting the passives properly, SR will use WAY less endurance.

I also would like to point out that I have yet to run into a /Dark Scrapper on test that I cannot kill WAY faster than a SR scrapper. 1 Break Free = their Death... And it would be WAY easier with a blaster, since I wouldn't have to get into range of COF.

[vyxzuw]

PvP is not the same as PvE. And Tohit debuff is worse in PvP.

The 50% debuff.

If someone has one Hammy-O. They have a 50% Acc.

The debuff simply removes that.

ie. 75*(1+(.5)-(.5)=75%

It doesn't half the Acc.

ie. 75*(1+.5)=137.5/2=68.75%

Thus, it's worse in PvP.

The Debuff from COF is PBAOE, and cannot be added to ranged defense values really.

So's Ripper and DS...Also, CoD means stealth. Which means I can pick and choose what I want to fight.

You aren't taking a few other factors into account when considering defensive sets, including the fact that PB is a click power, and that when slotting the passives properly, SR will use WAY less endurance.

Click power is irrelevent in PvE. How many times have your toggles dropped in PvE?

Again PvP...I could CARE LESS!

And end? Compare the end drain for my build, versus a SR build.

I'm also doing damage from DS. Which saves end.

And the thing is...I can HEAL myself.

[Mahaf]

Before, you were saying that DA and SR weren't even close to even. (The test says they aren't. That's what I've been argueing.)
I was saying SR was a lot higher in the tests, because it was. But if you take the best of both builds, I would probably say right now on Test (without perma-elude) they're roughly even or so.

And I highly doubt the SR endurance drain matches the endurance drain of DE, MC, OS, DS, CoD, Tough, Weave, Acrobatics (As many choose to take) and Focused Accuracy (which many also choose to take). I just don't think SR has that much of an endurance drain, mostly because two out of the those 9 toggles have a base drain of 1.25 end/sec, the second highest endurance drain on a toggle in the game(Telekinesis is around 3 I think, or was), if I'm not badly mistaken.

[vyxzuw]

And I highly doubt the SR endurance drain matches the endurance drain of DE, MC, OS, DS, CoD, Tough, Weave, Acrobatics (As many choose to take) and Focused Accuracy (which many also choose to take).

You're right. THAT many toggles is nowhere near SR's drain...However, many SR scrapers ALSO take other pool powers.

I asked, if my build had a worse end drain then an SR build getting 95% defense. (Non-Perma-Elude...)

But if you take the best of both builds, I would probably say right now on Test (without perma-elude) they're roughly even or so.

Actually...with the CoF nerf...they aren't. They debuff needs to HIT to work. And they nerfed the to hit of CoF. Thus, you have the debuff less.

(Also, remember that I slotted a few end reducers in my powers. Like 3 for CoF...While SR can't afford that many end reducers.)

Edit: Btw...What help does an SR scrapper give to his team?
DA gives a 50% Debuff to ACC from any attack from anyone around him...

A SR scrapper fights a AV with two blasters. The AV uses a AoE attack...assuming that the blasters are in the AoE range...and occurance that is unfortunately all too common, they will be hit.

A DA scrapper, however, will, at least statistically speaking, save one of them.

[Darknesse]

I just want to note that I have had my toggles dropped by the De, the Rikti and the Ruularuu by them simply overpowering them with numbers.

[vyxzuw]

Wierd...never had my toggles drop.

I have been immobilized...and knockdown on occasion.

May be that OS gives a higher mag, than other sets, since no other power gives mez protection for DA. (Inv has Unyielding and Unstoppable for instance.) (It also only affects toggle droppers...)

Edit: Anyways...lets not have SR and DA scrappers bicker over who's worst. Let's focus on Regen and Inv being above us...We want boosts! We want boosts! We want boobs! We want boosts!

[Tsarmina]

Edit: Anyways...lets not have SR and DA scrappers bicker over who's worst. Let's focus on Regen and Inv being above us...We want boosts! We want boosts! We want boobs! We want boosts!
*wonders what powers will give Vyx boobs and what he will do with them* :o

[Darknesse]

I'm not sure why you never had it happen. Have you ever fought a swarm of Tsoo and have them all hit you with EM at once? It will drop your toggles most of the time. To date, I have had it happen to my Invuln scrapper AND my Fire Tank.

[vyxzuw]

Yes. I've had swarms of Fungi use Sleep spores also, during the Eden trial at the Mold wall. But have not had my toggles drop.

I don't know why. (At least for stun and sleep. Hold is protected by OS and Acro...)