Question: Hammy Os, PVP and you.

[Darknesse]

Okay, let me fire off a question.

How do you feel about Hamidon-Os for PVP?

Personally, even though I have them, I am against them.

I do not want PVP to become a case of the haves vs the have nots. As it stands now, the Hand can kill a SR scrapper by hitting him every time because of the overpowered hammy os (example: I have 6 in headsplitter, giving him an additional 300% damage and 300% Accuracy, which totally negates the entirety of SR).

Also, it seems to become less about the skill of the player, but rather about the Loot from the O's. I don't like it one bit. What to do about it is the question. Is it fair to decrease the effectiveness of the "O" so that it only works as well as an SO, while still effecting 2 different abilities? I believe so.

Your thoughts?

[Noble]

Considering what you have just stated as an example, Hammy-Os do seem to be just a "tad" overpowered.

As for a solution to this problem for PvP, I haven't the slightest idea. :confused:

[Cryogentic]

I don't like the idea of them either since it does give you an edge against others that can not get them. I've been giving mine away to blasters when I get them.

Its a nice idea to have some reward that is hard to get, but something like that in PvP might be a bit much, at least with the accolade powers they really don't affect PvP much

[Akamaz]

it does seem a bit overpawered (at least for PVP) but then again, i've not seen that many pvp fights and most of those are for the lower weight classes

[Esbat]

Maybe, instead of taking teh nerfbat to them, there be some kind of designation/icon/warning that this person has been "infected"/"encountered" the Hamidon and came away "enhanced" or something.

[vyxzuw]

One idea for Hammy-Os (That won't be used by the Devs, cause people would scream murder...), would be to allow only ONE Hammy-O in any given power.

Which means, you can have one Hammy-O for each power, but not fill a power with them...

(Most people will replace an Acc enc with a Acc/Dam, for instance. Thus increasing the Acc from 33 to 50 and the Dam by another 50. This is a nice boost, but not 'game-breaking')

[Darknesse]

Don't know if that makes a difference. You can know it's coming all you want, but you wont be able to do anything about it.

[Darknesse]

Maybe, instead of taking teh nerfbat to them, there be some kind of designation/icon/warning that this person has been "infected"/"encountered" the Hamidon and came away "enhanced" or something.
Don't know if that makes a difference. Even if you had a warning that you are going to die, it's still going to be like Final Destination.

[vyxzuw]

Plus, then people may not play with Hammy-O owners...which seems like a punishment, for doing beating the Hamidon...

Or someone may only own ONE Hammy-O, and people think he is loaded with them...

[Cryogentic]

What about a handicap meter or something, it could also help with the any level is welcome to join fights so the lower level people have a better chance

[Esbat]

Plus, then people may not play with Hammy-O owners...which seems like a punishment, for doing beating the Hamidon...

Or someone may only own ONE Hammy-O, and people think he is loaded with them...

Well if you were up for a friendly face off would you fight the guy with glowy fists and eyes or the guy with some covered in menacing gelatin?

[Blue Bolt]

How about designate a new class for them, like Hami-Weights or something, because really they're in a class all their own. :|

[Tsarmina]

it does seem a bit overpawered (at least for PVP) but then again, i've not seen that many pvp fights and most of those are for the lower weight classes
It still effects the lower weight classes. If a lvl 50 with Hammi O's is in a match and exemplared down to a 20... his Hammi's still are better than any SO a natural 20 has. Right?

[Jade_Dragon]

I like the suggestion to have an option to disable them, like you have with travel Powers and the like. I'm assuming that the code to "exemplar" down for lower level tourneys works, and the Hami-Os are reduced to more typical Enhancements for the level. So this would just be the same thing, as an option for same-level tourneys.

I'm not a PvPer, though (I will probably enter the tournaments, but only with specific characters) so I don't really have an opinion on the Enhancements themselves.

[vyxzuw]

Well if you were up for a friendly face off would you fight the guy with glowy fists and eyes or the guy with some covered in menacing gelatin?

A what about the guy with only ONE Hammy-O?

Just a change from 33% ACC to 50% and an increase of 50% Dam to ONE power...

How many Hammy-Os are too many? (Remember, that at level 50, a char can have quite a LOT of powers. Even 20 Hammy-Os, can be spread out to one per power. Which isn't THAT big a boost. However, someone that puts them in a few powers, will have a few uber-powers.)

[Cryogentic]

most people would place them all in one power to make it as strong as they can, it only makes sence

[Jade_Dragon]

It still effects the lower weight classes. If a lvl 50 with Hammi O's is in a match and exemplared down to a 20... his Hammi's still are better than any SO a natural 20 has. Right?


AFAIK, no, as I mentioned in my post. I believe when you Exemplar down, your Enhancements are reduced to a "typical" level, as with "real" Exemplaring.

Then again, I don't know exactly how that process works. It could substitute each Enhancement with a "typical" one, which would solve the problem, or it could just apply a reduction factor (say, 50%, just as an off the cuff example) which would NOT. The Hami-Os would still act like two Enhancements, just two DOs or TOs.

I don't even know if anyone's tested it to see how effective the auto-Exemplar is.

[Mahaf]

I see where you're worried Dark, and it worries me, too. But if you look at any other MMOG supporting PvP, you'll see that it's all about items. Who's got the better item wins. You may point out that CoH doesn't have items, but that's what enhancements are. They're armor (Defense and Resistance), and your weapon (Accuracy and Damage) and various other things needed. They're items, and as with any other MMOG items are the dominant factor in PvP matches. Not much you can do about it.

[Darknesse]

A what about the guy with only ONE Hammy-O?

Just a change from 33% ACC to 50% and an increase of 50% Dam to ONE power...

How many Hammy-Os are too many? (Remember, that at level 50, a char can have quite a LOT of powers. Even 20 Hammy-Os, can be spread out to one per power. Which isn't THAT big a boost. However, someone that puts them in a few powers, will have a few uber-powers.)
Yeah. That's what I did. I put them all in Headsplitter, so if I needed someone down immediately, I had the hardest hitting attack in the game, dealing maximum damage at maximum accuracy.

It was kind of an "off" button.

[Randomus]

I thought about this a lot after last night and a conversation I had with the Liberty League. After all that thinking, I came to the conclusion I see Darknesse has suggested. It would be much better overall if Hamidon Enhancements were only as effective as SOs, but still effected two stats.

We're no stranger to nerfing in CoH, so it wouldn't be any different than the usual outcry, and probably even less as most people don't have builds based entirely on the Hamidon rewards. People will bitch and moan, but in the end it's really the only way to keep PVP vaguely balanced. At least, between Hamidon-powered players and non-Hamidon-powered players. There's still a ton of balancing they need to do.

[vyxzuw]

I like the suggestion to have an option to disable them, like you have with travel Powers and the like. I'm assuming that the code to "exemplar" down for lower level tourneys works, and the Hami-Os are reduced to more typical Enhancements for the level. So this would just be the same thing, as an option for same-level tourneys.

There are some problems with this.

First, how will they scale down? What does a 50Acc/50Dam scale too?

33/33? But still, 6 of those, gives a 200% increase to Dam and Acc...

And if you scale them lower, then someone with only one Dam/Acc in each power, will be penalized in terms of Acc...(From a 33% Acc, to a less than 33Acc/Dam, etc.)

And what about Resist and Def? (or Recharge?) Someone may respec their builds, to get to the cap of resist, or perma a power, and slot other powers instead. But, lowering the effectiveness, puts them BELOW the cap.

(I don't really know if there ARE Res and Def, or even Recharge, and what value they have, but it is a concern.)

[Malibu Sally]

I don't think matters much(at least from my perspective). I die just as quickly against anyone who is not 5+ levels lower than me regardless of whether they have hammies or not. :D

[Mahaf]

I don't think matters much(at least from my perspective). I die just as quickly against anyone who is not 5+ levels lower than me regardless of whether they have hammies or not. :D
Not true, you killed Mahaf last night! And we were the same level! :chuckle:

[Randomus]

That's another thing. I was astonished at how little damage Sally did to me. I assumed a Blaster would one-shot me. Do you have SOs in your attacks?

[Blue Bolt]

Either Rando or Sally got me last night... :randomus: :sally: :mad:

[Cryogentic]

I was surprised also when she sniped me it didn't really hurt me at all, I do have resistance to smash/lethal and energy is crush damage right? but still I would expect a sniper shot would hurt a lot more. I think Randomus was doing more damage then Sally was doing to me

[Mahaf]

I actually did better on the deaths when I WASN'T running any of my armors. <looks a Krypto> Ph34r the b00/\/\b0xx! :P

Cryo, Energy is it's own damage type. Negative energy is included in the energy damage type, as well.

[Sable Phoenix]

I agree with Darknesse on this. Frankly, I think the whole concept of the Hamidon Enhancers is flat-out wrong in this game. Just look at all the "spawn camping" and fighting over who has the "right" to hold open or closed raids on the Big Jello. It's the one thing in CoH that is like EQ or other MMOs (how's THAT for number of acronyms in a sentence, hey?), at least till the Arena came along, and has brought the same behavior that everyone hates about those things into CoH.

I don't think this would be nearly the problem it is if the arena had never been made (once again, we see the behavior everyone dislikes about MMOs surfacing concurrent to another concession to the standard MMOs -- the Arena has only impacted the game negatively). Frankly for PvP balance is impossible to achieve, and there are bigger problems than Hami-Os when it comes to that anyway that should be addressed first (like how blasters die to everything with extreme rapidity). That being said, Hami-O's are imbalancing and there is no way to make them anything other than imbalancing outside of, a: eliminating them completely; or b: making them commonly available.

To me this is all hypothetical anyway, though, since when the Arena goes live I'm not stepping foot in it. I just hate that it has impacted PvE play, both in gameplay and in community, and not for the better. Despite what everyone said, I knew that would happen.

[Jade_Dragon]

There are some problems with this.

First, how will they scale down? What does a 50Acc/50Dam scale too?

33/33? But still, 6 of those, gives a 200% increase to Dam and Acc...

Well, that's kinda like what I said to Mina. I don't know HOW they scale down. But it's obvious that they do. The code is already there, to Exemplar, so it's just a matter of what it does. All I know is what the devs have said, which is that it's adjusted down to be "typical" of a hero of that level. Whatever that means.

One possibility is that it just takes each Enhancement, and "replaces" it with an appropriate Enhancement of the right level. Let's say, for instance, that for a given Exemplar down to a particular level, his Enhancements, be they 33% or whatever, are just changed to 17.68%. Which is a number calculated by the devs to represent a level where you will have a number of DOs and a couple of SOs.

But as you say, what is the Hami-O "replaced" by? Does it pick one of the factors that are adjusted and "replace" it with that type of Enhancement? How does it decide which to pick? If it doesn't, does that mean it's a 17.68%/17.68% Hami-O?

The other possibility is that ALL Enhancements, as a whole, are just multiplied by 53.57%. Whatever your total bonus is, be it 200% or 300%, is multiplied by 53.57%. Then the "replacement" of a Hami-O wouldn't enter into it at all, it would just be the equivalent of 17.68%/17.68%.

[Mahaf]

To me this is all hypothetical anyway, though, since when the Arena goes live I'm not stepping foot in it. I just hate that it has impacted PvE play, both in gameplay and in community, and not for the better. Despite what everyone said, I knew that would happen.
I've always agreed with you here. PvP changes should in NO way affect PvE. That's just rediculous. That's why you can't ever get close to a balance in PvP, you'd make those charactesr god-like in PvE, and others gimped there. You can't attempt to balance both. It's about three times more impossible than trying to balance either alone. But, of course, they try it. Knowing that no other MMOG has been able (Or will be able) to do it, they continue this definitive insanity.

[Malibu Sally]

I did great in that first match where everyone capped at level 26. The following matches had the cap removed and I only had two kills from then on.

One was against Rand in the office map. I landed a Char which held him. Took more than 10 shots and a second Char to kill him but that is to be expected since he is 6 levels higher than me.

The second kill was against Widowed in the FFA. She is 5 levels below me yet it still took 8 shots to win. I experimented a bit an did nothing for a while... Widdy was able to kill me with only 4 shots. Her damage hitting me was considerably higher than mine hitting her.

I could see two problems: First, my damage sucked. I am maxed out with SO's damagewise yet could barely scrape those who were close to me in level(never mind trying to damage Krypto at level 50... that's impossible). From level 35 onwards, I really beleive that blaster damage is not scaling up correctly. That is why I could get 10 kills in the first match and only two in the rest.

The second problem I saw was accuracy. My targeting drone is 5 slotted with acc buff SO's. I was missing about 3/4 of my shots against anyone higher than level 36 in the no level cap matches. I am beginning to think that there is something wrong with Targeting Drone post level 32. I see the same problems in PvE as well.(though not as pronounced)

you killed Mahaf last night! And we were the same level!
Yes, in the first match where everyone was level 26, I killed you.

[Mahaf]

Yes, in the first match where everyone was level 26, I killed you.
Well, don't feel bad. In the level 26 match, I got only 5 kills myself. The only other kill I made was in the Free-for-All, where I cheapshotted Krypto with my boombox of doom.

[Malibu Sally]

I was surprised also when she sniped me it didn't really hurt me at all, I do have resistance to smash/lethal and energy is crush damage right? but still I would expect a sniper shot would hurt a lot more. I think Randomus was doing more damage then Sally was doing to me

In the FFA matches, yes he was doing more damage, but that is only because he is level 47(or is it 48) and I am only level 41. What we should have done was run a series of matches with different level caps. We did the one at level 26. We should have done at least one at level 35, and one at level 40. Even so, I believe that blaster damage is not scaling up right post level 32.(It's just not very apparent till level 40 and beyond)

[Randomus]

I got the impression that the match sort of forcefully sidekicked everyone up to level 50. Otherwise Engine of Ruin, at level 40, wouldn't have been able to hit anyone. And his damage was still considerable for a Tank. I don't know if my being 6 levels higher was the cause of the lowered damage, though. It could be, of course. Also, I have one Hamidon Damage/Range in both Sniper Blast and Energy Blast.

Also, I was held by both you and Cryo (or her Singularities) at the same time in the first FFA. It was pretty funny.

[Malibu Sally]

I got the impression that the match sort of forcefully sidekicked everyone up to level 50.

If that is the case then my damage scaling really IS broken.

[vyxzuw]

Acc is unaffected by level for PvP.

You have a 75% chance to hit ANYONE, regardless of level. (Before buffs, and debuffs, and def and whatnot.)

Hitpoints will be more for a higher level. So shooting someone higher than you, will take of a smaller percentage of his health. (Same damage.)

Also, a higher level will do more damage with his powers, based on level. (However, it won't scale up for lower, or down for higher.)

So: Lets take an example of a low level scrapper, and a higher level scrapper. (or blaster, or whatever...just want both types to be the same, and lets assume same power sets)

The low level has only 500 health, and an attack that does 100 damage.

The higher level has 1000 health, and the same attack does 200 damage.

The low level could beat his own copy, in 5 hits, but needs 10 hits on the higher level.

While the higher level, can beat the low level in 3 hits (2 1/2) and can beat himself in 5 hits. (Note: they can both beat a copy of themselves in 5 hits...)

So, the higher level should win. Even if both are using only one unslotted power...

Being exped in the game, will scale your health and powers down to that level, as well sa removing powers.

So, if the high level exps down to the low level's level, he would scale down to 500 health and 100 damage. (He'd still would have some advantage from having the opportunity to slot his powes more...)

So, level DOES matter. (But, a low level can still beat a higher level, if they are of a type that can beat them. For instance, a low level scrapper can beat a higher level blaster, since the scrapper has defensive powers. But, it will be closer...)

Think of it as PvP being an extreme version of the game pre-purple patch...

[Frost Sampson]

Oh and everyone does *not* scale up to 50. That ffa was an 'any level' match so everyone fought at the level their character was.

[Malibu Sally]

Did not really have a problem with what you said till this:

So, level DOES matter. (But, a low level can still beat a higher level, if they are of a type that can beat them. For instance, a low level scrapper can beat a higher level blaster, since the scrapper has defensive powers. But, it will be closer...)

Please explain how a level 36 SR scrapper was doing nearly TWICE the damage to a level 41 blaster than the blaster was doing to the scrapper. I am talking about per HIT, not per shot.

Acc is unaffected by level for PvP.

You have a 75% chance to hit ANYONE, regardless of level. (Before buffs, and debuffs, and def and whatnot.)

So targeting drone really IS useless. On or off I was hitting only 25 percent of my shots against anyone remotely close to me in level during the FFA.

[Jade_Dragon]

Please explain how a level 36 SR scrapper was doing nearly TWICE the damage to a level 41 blaster than the blaster was doing to the scrapper. I am talking about per HIT, not per shot.


Tough, maybe? Assuming you're comparing equivalent attacks (not comparing Headsplitter to Flares, for instance) the SR Scrapper shouldn't have any innate damage resistance.

[Xanatos]

I do not want PVP to become a case of the haves vs the have nots. As it stands now, the Hand can kill a SR scrapper by hitting him every time because of the overpowered hammy os (example: I have 6 in headsplitter, giving him an additional 300% damage and 300% Accuracy, which totally negates the entirety of SR).

It doesn't 'totally negate the entire set of SR'. Fight Libertyman or a decent SR scrapper if you want proof. Libertyman has no hamidon enhancers and is a MA/SR scrapper. I'm not saying SR is overpowered - just that my inability to hit him with every hit with an almost identicle set-up is indacative of how hamidon enhancers don't 'totally negate the entire set of SR'.

In my opinion anyone who is loaded with Hamidon enhancers must have put allot of timeinto their character (1 per hamidon raid - and it's not always one they can use.) So the idea that they grant a noticeable difference seems fair to me. but I'm Biased.

[Malibu Sally]

Tough, maybe? Assuming you're comparing equivalent attacks (not comparing Headsplitter to Flares, for instance) the SR Scrapper shouldn't have any innate damage resistance.

Tough? I wonder. If tough allows a scrapper which is 5 levels lower than me to outdamage me, then what would the disparity be if we were equal levels? How about if we were equal level and both had tough equally slotted? I'll have to try arrange some sparring, though I still believe the main cause is my damage is not scaling on par with other AT's damage and defense.

This is what is killing me. I can jump into the power pools for some measure of defense but is it really worth it? The defense is not really that spectacular and I would have to sacrifice offensive output to gain said defense. I'll pester Darknesse for some numbers about this because my math sucks.

[coldcut]

Well I'm a little biased here, but I tend to believe that PVP in MMOs is fundamentally flawed since it essentially comes down to what you have as opposed to what you can do. So the HOs aren't really changing things that much.

I do like the idea of a "HO" class, that would only be populated by people with a certain number of HOs. That might make things a little truer to the spirit of the game.

I'm hoping that COV's PVP is so different so as to essentially negate this, but I'm not real optimistic.

[Vendel]

I'm hoping that COV's PVP is so different so as to essentially negate this, but I'm not real optimistic.


I personally think I4 is like a pre-alpha beta testing for CoV thats why they pushed it out now instead of I5 or such. Were like rats in a maze.

As a blaster I keep reading all the horror stories about PvP and I shudder. I thank God for Sally. Preach it :adore:

[Tarberetta]

Myself, I really don't care one way or another. I don't plan on spending much time in the arena.

[Malibu Sally]

I personally think I4 is like a pre-alpha beta testing for CoV thats why they pushed it out now instead of I5 or such. Were like rats in a maze.

As a blaster I keep reading all the horror stories about PvP and I shudder. I thank God for Sally. Preach it :adore:

The PvP for blasters is not that bad when the level is restricted. Like I said earlier, I did just fine when we were all capped at level 26. It's when that cap was removed that I had problems.

The battles last night were difficult to judge also. There was one blaster, one defender, one controller, one(sometimes two) tanks, and about 8 scrappers. Since the controller and defender were significantly higher level than me, I really could not do much against them. I pretty much was restricted to trying to fight scrappers and tanks and that is no fun. I would really like to fight a few other blasters of near equal level.

[Darknesse]

It doesn't 'totally negate the entire set of SR'. Fight Libertyman or a decent SR scrapper if you want proof. Libertyman has no hamidon enhancers and is a MA/SR scrapper. I'm not saying SR is overpowered - just that my inability to hit him with every hit with an almost identicle set-up is indacative of how hamidon enhancers don't 'totally negate the entire set of SR'.
If you do the numbers, which you can easily pull from here (http://jumpspot.net/coh/sr-chart.xls), you will see that the highest you can get is around + 120% defense. Well, considering that with just the Hammy Os I get to around + 300% BTH. Not even including buildup, invincibility and Focused Accuracy, I would assume I am landing that shot above 80% of the time.

[Vendel]

The PvP for blasters is not that bad when the level is restricted. Like I said earlier, I did just fine when we were all capped at level 26. It's when that cap was removed that I had problems.

The battles last night were difficult to judge also. There was one blaster, one defender, one controller, one(sometimes two) tanks, and about 8 scrappers. Since the controller and defender were significantly higher level than me, I really could not do much against them. I pretty much was restricted to trying to fight scrappers and tanks and that is no fun. I would really like to fight a few other blasters of near equal level.


Well being lvl 42 myself I am not looking forward to unrestricted fights.

And I would be happy to meet you in the arena if I was on the test :shinner:

[Jade_Dragon]

Tough? I wonder. If tough allows a scrapper which is 5 levels lower than me to outdamage me, then what would the disparity be if we were equal levels? How about if we were equal level and both had tough equally slotted? I'll have to try arrange some sparring, though I still believe the main cause is my damage is not scaling on par with other AT's damage and defense.

This is what is killing me. I can jump into the power pools for some measure of defense but is it really worth it? The defense is not really that spectacular and I would have to sacrifice offensive output to gain said defense. I'll pester Darknesse for some numbers about this because my math sucks.

Your damage can't scale "not on par with other AT's damage", unless there is a bug. Scrappers gain damage at exactly the same rate as Blasters. You should not see any difference in the damage you do, compared to the damage a Scrapper does, assuming the same target and the same attack. There is no "scaling". Even against Tankers and Defenders, it's a constant ratio.

I'm assuming that when you say "damage", you mean the actual numbers that are generated by the attack. Not the base damage you did, which you can't know, but the damage adjusted by damage resistance. If this were an Invulnerability Scrapper or Tanker, then I wouldn't be surprised by it at all. The only thing that confuses me is that it's an SR Scrapper, who shouldn't be able to resist your damage. So the two of you should have exactly the same damage resistance, unless either of you has Tough. (He will just be hit less often)

And besides, Tough shouldn't be effecting flame attacks...

Did the Scrapper have a teammate who put a damage debuff on you? Or maybe you are talking about your damage as compared to a critical? That would always be twice the damage you can do. Of course, he probably criticals you about as often as you hit him...

[Malibu Sally]

Your damage can't scale "not on par with other AT's damage", unless there is a bug. Scrappers gain damage at exactly the same rate as Blasters. You should not see any difference in the damage you do, compared to the damage a Scrapper does, assuming the same target and the same attack. There is no "scaling". Even against Tankers and Defenders, it's a constant ratio.

I'm assuming that when you say "damage", you mean the actual numbers that are generated by the attack. Not the base damage you did, which you can't know, but the damage adjusted by damage resistance. If this were an Invulnerability Scrapper or Tanker, then I wouldn't be surprised by it at all. The only thing that confuses me is that it's an SR Scrapper, who shouldn't be able to resist your damage. So the two of you should have exactly the same damage resistance, unless either of you has Tough. (He will just be hit less often)

And besides, Tough shouldn't be effecting flame attacks...

Did the Scrapper have a teammate who put a damage debuff on you? Or maybe you are talking about your damage as compared to a critical? That would always be twice the damage you can do. Of course, he probably criticals you about as often as you hit him...


The event was free for all. I am Energy/Devices(not fire) at level 41. My opponent was a level 36 MA/SR. My three main attacks were doing total 80-120 points per hit. The opponent was hitting me for between 150-195 per hit.(not including crits)

So, assuming my opponent had tough 6 slotted with with level 35++ damage resistance, is that enough to reduce my attacks(all 6 slotted with 40++ damage) to doing the 80-120 points of damage? I would think possibly yes IF energy attacks were all lethal and smash damage. But my attacks are mostly energy damage with only partial smash and lethal(not sure on the actual division of damage numbers. I only did quick addition of the three sets of damage numbers that popped on the screen)

[Quakester]

I think it's the damage cap. 400% ranged, 500% melee.

[Jade_Dragon]

The event was free for all. I am Energy/Devices(not fire) at level 41. My opponent was a level 36 MA/SR. My three main attacks were doing total 80-120 points per hit. The opponent was hitting me for between 150-195 per hit.(not including crits)

So, assuming my opponent had tough 6 slotted with with level 35++ damage resistance, is that enough to reduce my attacks(all 6 slotted with 40++ damage) to doing the 80-120 points of damage? I would think possibly yes IF energy attacks were all lethal and smash damage. But my attacks are mostly energy damage with only partial smash and lethal(not sure on the actual division of damage numbers. I only did quick addition of the three sets of damage numbers that popped on the screen)

Dunno where I got the idea you were Fire/Devices. I read your Crey profile, and remember the bit about summoning gadgets. Ah, well, they say the memory is the first thing to, um... what was I saying?

Anyway, Energy is half Smash, half Energy. Actually, according to the Brawl Index, it varies from 25% to 65% Smashing. Plus, 30% of that SHOULD be unresistable. So that's probably around an average of 35% resistable. Even with 33% resistance from Tough, you should still have done only about 133 damage, compared to 100. (don't ask me to reproduce the algebra that got me that answer...)

I suspect that the real problem was not the ratio of your damage to his, though, but the strength of his attacks compared to yours. More than likely if you were avoiding the Scrapper and trying to get away from him, he was using the heavier attacks like Eagle's Claw, since he had plenty of time for them to recharge. Meanwhile, your main three attacks were on the average less than that.

I suspect Tough played a part, but not a big part. The bigger issue is that he was able to conserve Endurance and wait for the chance to strike, while you were having to constantly attack and miss, using weaker attacks and using up End. I have to agree, it doesn't sound much like balance...

[Jade_Dragon]

I'm going to invalidate what I said above. I decided to use the Brawl Index to try and calculate what the MA Scrapper should have been doing, and it came out a little high, particularly for Crane Kick and Eagle's Claw. Then again, he was lower level than you, so adjusting damage downward for level, he could have easily have been doing 150-195. (My numbers were about 135-180 for regular attacks, and 225-275 for CK & EC)

My problem comes when I try to figure out what your Brawl damage must have been by dividing by Brawl Index. Even if I adjust for Tough as above, it's still way lower than a Blaster at level 35, and at 41 it should be HIGHER. So I'm guessing there's still a resistance I'm not considering. Or at the very least a bug. Maybe they're not making as much damage resistable as they say.

[vyxzuw]

So targeting drone really IS useless. On or off I was hitting only 25 percent of my shots against anyone remotely close to me in level during the FFA.

Huh?
It's not useless. It's very hard to tell the difference between 20% and 30% of your attacks hitting.
Targeting Drones like having a SO ACC enhancment. (Or one with threeish To hit SOs is...) So, it's not a HUGE buff, but it helps.

Since I don't know what you were shooting at (If it were people with defense abilities, it'll mess up your numbers, as you don't know what their defensive powers are. And with pool defenses, and some epic, and others, even blasters and other ATs you wouldn't expect having defense, will.)

How do you have TD slotted?

The event was free for all. I am Energy/Devices(not fire) at level 41. My opponent was a level 36 MA/SR. My three main attacks were doing total 80-120 points per hit. The opponent was hitting me for between 150-195 per hit.(not including crits)

Was he using Dam inspires?

Tough can give between 15% and 33% resist. (Which only apply to your smash damage.) So, damage reducing wise...don't know. Don't know what attacks you were doing, and how much you buffed them (through SOs, and BU, Aim, etc...). However, I think it was more him buffing, than resisting.

If he was using his strongest attacks (Eagles Claw, Crane Kick, Dragon Tail, over and over...and with Quickness, and perhaps Hasten, they will recharge fast), while you were using more standard attacks (Power Blast, Power Bolt, maybe Power Burst) he will outdamage you. (Plus, he has Focus Chi, to help boost his damage.)

To compare: How much did Sniper Blast do? (Comparable to Eagle's Claw...)

[vyxzuw]

Not sure about Blaster damage. But when I used Sgt. Kern, I was able to chew through people pretty well...(Although, I was using Full Auto a lot...)

Then again, he was lower level than you, so adjusting damage downward for level, he could have easily have been doing 150-195.

His damage ISN'T scaled down for attacking a higher level...

There may be a bug, for blaster damage (or mixed damage types, at least...).

There WAS a bug earlier for mixed damage types for accuracy. (So, maybe energy/smash is being bugged, with regards to resist?)

[inkblaster]

Maybe Blaster damage isn't scaling well, also, with the devices secondary you're missing buildup, which helps quite a bit IMHO.

In a free for all of:
Hollis-29 BS/DA,
Lamprey(Amoeba-Man)-30 DM/EL def,
myself-31 EN/EN blaster

I was hitting pretty well, I actually managed to get a built up/aimed snipe off on Lamprey and if not one-shotted, was pretty close to it, which was needed when he was almost healing half his hit points with his dark darkity powers.

edit, oh, and as far as HAMMY-Os go, yes they are difficult to get, unless you and your 8 college buddies don't care about classes and spend day and night battling the Hammy until everyone is fully stocked.

It's the nature of online gaming, as for how to handle them in PvP, you don't want to punish people for putting time and effort into their character, possibly the flashback system will have some way to handle it better.

[Noble]

An idea has been mentioned about making Hammi-O's more available. I personally think the largest problem with this game is that the Hammi-O's are the best thing available in game.

I know the idea is old news, but the best solution that I can think of this would be to make more end game content, raids, so that camping of the hammidon would decrease. The enhancements from defeating these other high level creatures could be of the same caliber.

Concerning balance, I don't think someone at lvl 20 should really be concerned about being able to beat a lvl 50 in each other's respective power levels. Equality should only be a concern in the arena, but for CoV the level differences should be something that is respected and left alone. Balancing PvP so that all levels are equal is redundant and counterproductive to encouraging people to level up at all.

[Jade_Dragon]

His damage ISN'T scaled down for attacking a higher level...


You're right, I was just assuming because of the scaling for PvE. But that probably doesn't apply for PvP. I guess it's just damage vs hit points, with higher levels having more hit points.

But that just means the damage should be the damage. There's no scaling involved. Brawl x Brawl Index x Enhancements. Unless there's a bug.

[Krypto]

If you do the numbers, which you can easily pull from here (http://jumpspot.net/coh/sr-chart.xls), you will see that the highest you can get is around + 120% defense. Well, considering that with just the Hammy Os I get to around + 300% BTH. Not even including buildup, invincibility and Focused Accuracy, I would assume I am landing that shot above 80% of the time.


If that were true, then I'd be hitting SR Scrappers with NO trouble at all, just relying on my Hamidon enhancements. Unfortunately, it's not. I don't think the accuracy bonus is 50%...hell, even with Focused Accuracy, I still can't hit a properly slotted MoG Scrapper. My lack of a buildup doesn't help either.

You mentioned earlier, that having Hami-Os was all about the powers, and not skill. I'd like to ask you exactly WHAT skill there is for a Scrapper?
Midnight Grasp(Immobilize Squishy), Smite, Shadowmaul = dead Blaster/Defender/Controller.

And, regarding SR...are you suggesting that EVERYONE should have their accuracy floored, and just let SR Scrappers mop the floor with everyone else while they can't be touched? Because that's what it seems like to me.

[Cryogentic]

I've faced some really tough blasters in the arena lately, they were equal level though, I know what some of them did to get how they are.

[vyxzuw]

But that just means the damage should be the damage. There's no scaling involved. Brawl x Brawl Index x Enhancements. Unless there's a bug.

What I mean is, you won't do more damage to a lower level target, in PvP, than to a higher level.

BUT, a higher level will do more damage with his attacks, than a lower level. (Your powers do more damage as you level...)

What I think some people think, is that PvP powers work like PvE powers. (ie, if you attack a lvl 10 with your lvl 50...even with brawl, you'll flatten them...partly due to lower hitpoints, but also because your damage SCALES up. This level scaling doesn't happen in PvP...)

Damage is based on YOUR level, not your targets. (Unlike PvE, where it depends on both...)

[Dark AngelHawk]

I only like the idea of having them for a couple reasons.

1. The people that have them taken the time(can be hours at a time for just one hamio *I know this from personal experience*) to get them, others could have too but didn't.

2. I am a squishy def and those hamios have boosted my heals/shields up to help me a bit. More so on the heals. My healing aura is now at 535!! woot!!

I may be wrong and I bet I am but I thought the devs had done something about it for when u go down in lvl...that the effectiveness of the HO isn't as supieror. Again don't quote me I don't know just what someone had told me once.

[Darknesse]

If that were true, then I'd be hitting SR Scrappers with NO trouble at all, just relying on my Hamidon enhancements. Unfortunately, it's not. I don't think the accuracy bonus is 50%...hell, even with Focused Accuracy, I still can't hit a properly slotted MoG Scrapper. My lack of a buildup doesn't help either.

And, regarding SR...are you suggesting that EVERYONE should have their accuracy floored, and just let SR Scrappers mop the floor with everyone else while they can't be touched? Because that's what it seems like to me.

Thats wierd, since I hit them almost every time, Elude or not. Maybe it's the added accuracy inherent in the sword sets or Improved Accuracy, or the Debuff Defense hammy O I have in my fastest attack

You know very well that I do not want SR to dominate everyone. However, to say that the O-s don't make a difference as far between 2 even level scrappers with the same power picks and the same style is intellectually disingenuous. I know for a fact that if Post-Hammy-O Hand and Pre-Hammy-O Hand got in a fight, Post Hammy-O Hand would wipe the floor with him.

My main problem with SR is the way that they are less vulnerable to brawl than anyone else, both because of the click powers and because its almost impossible to land a brawl on them to drop their defenses anyways.

[Xanatos]

SR scrappers aren't an issue at all. Unlike other powersets (Regen, Invauln, Dark, etc) SR is BINARY. They either get hit or don't. The other sets are analogue and therefore easier for the devs to alter.

SR's only form of protection is to not get hit - which is what happens 90% (or is it 95%) of the time - which is completely acceptable.

The only time i see them dominating is in 40+ 1vs1 pvp - which should definately NOT be an area the devs look to balance.

[Jade_Dragon]

I prefer to say that SR has a high random factor, while other Defense sets are effectively taking constant low level damage.

In statistical terms, SR has a high standard deviation.

[Blackbat]

My main problem with SR is the way that they are less vulnerable to brawl than anyone else, both because of the click powers and because its almost impossible to land a brawl on them to drop their defenses anyways.

That's true. Having Elude and Practiced Brawler as click powers gives me an advantage. But SR isn't as uber as alot people claim. Even with 6-slotted Hami-O's in Elude I still can be hit quite often with the right build. I've noticed it's mostly from */Invuln scrappers. Suprisingly enough it's almost never from blasters which is the exact opposite of what I would have figured.

I don't personally have a problem with Hami-O's in PvP, but I wouldn't mind if they were barred from the Arena.