Seeking opinions on RP related to faction swapping.

[SovereignFist]

I've been struggling with this on a lore/rp aspect since it was introduced, as badly as I actually wanted it. Figured I'd post here and see if anybody wanted to toss in 2 cents. ((I tried FS, but fuck their 255 character question limit))

In game, take the transition from Villain to Hero. You start out as a villain, you run some "Im a greedy person, not an evil one" type rogue missions, and eventually become rogue.

At this point, you're able to travel to Paragon through two methods.

1. Janus the Submariner: A completely unaffilliated guy to anything, who apparently just carts you over in a submarine undetected.

2. Pocket D: A place ran by a guy who apparently could give 3 shits less about moral alignments. Heck, the elevators are actually guarded by the respective factions, it's arguable Zero would be fine with people coming and going however, whenever.

You eventually do enough good deeds in Paragon, you become hero, and can't go back to the isles.

Its Arguable the Arachnos operative in Pocket D wont let you buy because you'd be too much trouble, and maybe Janus has a soft spot and won't take you somewhere that you'll likely be actively hunted down and murdered.

Now, here's the tricky part. How does Paragon just let some villain that had a 2 day attack of conscience run around willy nilly and have full access to their health care system, and support by the structures in place to help heroes get work done?

Obviously, it's just a ball drop by the people handling the lore/game design, but it's a question Ive asked myself several times.

Now some people have RPed out that there's a legal process involved in their side swapping, which is cool, and makes perfect sense.

But, is it possible that what we have is Janus/Zero running what's effectively an illegal immigration ring, making sure people who hop to the other side are set up with a fake hero id and mediport access? I mean, it strikes me as a pretty simple answer, especially considering how easy it is with the proper efforts to just flop side to side.

I know a lot of people gloss over the idea of how their characters live during their offtime with endorsement deals, goverment support programs, etc, what do villains that have side swapped wind up doing, if they don't get drawn in and supported by supergroup or some organization of some sort?

For Example, what's triggered this conversation:

1. Character is from Praetoria. Is moved into the Rogue Isles, given information needed to survive in the Isles.

2. Character runs around being villainous, for whatever reason, robs multiple banks in Paragon, lives high on the villain lifestyle.

3. Character has a crisis of conscience, decides to stop being a villainous jerk, and tries to go clean.

4. Character gets moved into Paragon City by either Janus or Zero, and as a result of being originally from Praetoria, likely has no documentation of any sort and has no form of support system besides "I just saved your life, mind giving me a sandwich?"

5. Character loses his powers while in Paragon, so he has -nothing- to offer in exchange for any form of clemency agreement or "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" arrangement.

Now, i'd been having fun with the situation as is, having the character just be, well, a mooch off of all of his friends. But eventually, status quo gets boring and Ive decided to throw wrenches at it.

Obviously, the character's main source of income has always been "BEAT PEOPLE UP. TAKE THEIR STUFF" and that's not gonna fly in Paragon. The character has none of the documentation of being a citizen. Someone's suggested he needs to try and talk to someone about getting the situation straightened out so he can get his life on track.

Realistically, what do you think Paragon's stance is gonna be on this? You have a guy who committed multiple felonies and armed assaults on the police and a branch of the military, who's showed up now unpowered and can contribute very little, effectively looking for asylum/refugee status. You can color things in the favor of the character by pointing out that hey, while he was powered in Paragon, he saved bunches of lives and stopped all sorts of destruction and damage. You can also counter that with "How many lives and how much destruction did he do before he turned "hero"?

So, in your opinions, what do you think realistically happens in this situation?

[Charon]

Well realistically, even if someone made the switch to hero they'd still be a wanted criminal for the previous illegal acts unless issued with an official pardon or warrants for their arrest had been dropped. I assume that the only way a villain-turned-hero is able to maintain a life as a hero without being instantly arrested is through the use of a secret identity/alter-ego or performing enough heroic acts to get the aforementioned pardon/warrant droppage. If your villain made himself known and essentially threw himself at the mercy of Paragon's social care system I imagine they'd just immediately arrest the poor bastard and prosecute him for grand larceny.

[Gold Rush]

Well, I am not a strong in-game lore guy and many times, I just sometimes "chuck" things for my own story's benefit, but I think you mmay be looking at this a bit too ... "either/or" or "black/white".

The Janus/Zero thing is, of course, an in-game mechanic, but I can easily see this as a simple story/plot device worthy of the simple/story plot devices used in Golden Age comics. As you say, sometimes people's conscience gets the better of them (or a hero drops into depths of depravity). I mean, there are lots of things to consider, even if you just look at this with simple "golden Age" lenses. One's Sister/Brother could have been killed (or family) and that changes them. The simple view is that, at least on the hero-side, they are always accepting of the "good" or "good intentions" a person can do. In a way, it's a bit of what DC would have done not so long ago compared to Marvel. Really, in older comics, most of the time, people kept up with their new side and rarely changed over. Sure, it is a dynamic that does happen in "real life", but not so much in comic book lore.

But, we can put in more complications and controls into this, as much as the RPer/player is comfortable with. Take the Marvel comic book example of Hawkeye. He was a villain at the start of his career and he eventually changed and "switched sides". The thing about Hawkeye that one could assume is, that he was always "watched", at least initially, since he was a member of the danged "Avengers" group. Really, with such heavy hitters, it is easy to watch over a former criminal in their midst. Another example would be Rogue, of the X-Men. She was a criminal and member of the "Brotherhood of (Evil) Mutants" and she became a card-carrying X-Men...BUT, she had to prove herself. One of the strongest things here is she had to prove herself to the one holdout that did not trust her on the team (Wolverine/Logan) and once she did that, Logan backed her up, no questions asked. Still, she had a history and still had to convince other heroes she had hurt (like Ms. Marvel/Carol Danvers) and that is likely to linger, but not as much.

The thing is you can make that a big part of your story and keep it with you...or you can sorta cast it off after awhile. Again, it is dependent on the goal of the player in mind. Do you want government oversight into your character's daily life? Do you want to angst over having to report to a "parole officer" ever week/month? You can even have a bit of fun and expand some of your concerns: You mention medical, what if they withheld coverage of something? Perhaps you have to pay your own dental plan? Or they don't cover lancing of boils (or somesuch)? It gives your character something to complain about. You can always remark, if you get on the hero side, that no one ever fully trusts you and maybe they don't.

As for "clean slate", well, that's possible to do, too (as I mentioned DC's Golden Age history). It's a bit simplistic, but it's possible. It's always the former "bad boy" gone good. While you point out, "What benefit to society would my character have for the (good) side to take me?", there are many options. Information of any sort is a strong option, be it real information on a big, major group/individual or fake/made-up info that your character lied having (and you are trying to hide this fact). This is what (IMO, sadly) many police departments deal with as collateral with criminals: They catch a small fish and offer amnesty/lesser sentencing if they turn over info that can lead to them taking down an individual or group of individuals. So, there is that. Amnesty would be another: Basically, you are a welfare case and the (good) side takes you in to protect your life. Sure, they want something in exchange, but sometimes the good side does do such altruistic things with no strings attached, especially if you made your case in the public media/news.

I also feel you are forgetting some of the more "mundane" aspects. While your super-powered-individual may have always been the super-powered-individual, some do have secret identities (either at birth or soon after) and in those identities, they either have worked jobs (for the other side) or have grown up with a particular group or whatnot: Again, it's all about "information" and this info doesn't even have to be some big secret, but just minutae and knowledge of day-to-day operations or habits of a group or people to be useful to an organization.

This also can apply in reverse, too (Good guys going bad), but in that regard, the restrictions are more open. While all the above applies, I feel the "proving yourself" aspect is even more demanded in that you need to do a job or kill someone(s) to show loyalty. Also, the bad side is less forgiving with betrayal, so once you join them, it tends to be for life (traditionally speaking in their eyes). If you betray them, they will hunt you down. Of course, they do this with anyone, but I feel, the ones they take under their wing and made exceptions for that betray them (namely a former hero turned rogue) are even stronger. Such "pressure", both obvert and subtle, can be a strong assurance of "staying in line" and it is not only your character they could threaten, but also family, loved ones, or an item or interest.

[Xanatos]

Paragon's stance to former criminals is explained in Desdemona and Malaise: They forgive and forget, and they do it quickly. You have to remember that life is different in a super powered world. Heroes frequently die, change sides, attempt to take over the world, mass murder, come back from the dead, etc. Also remember that all of this happens VERY quickly. A lot can happen in a day in Paragon City, and I'm sure the people living there have much shorter life expectancies than us in the real world. If you take that into account, then it explains why people are so quick to forgive. In fact, people being quick to forgive seems to be the main concern you have here. And this is built upon another notion; that you matter.

Interestingly, I'd say that most people probably wouldn't care about you saving the world, given that it happens so frequently. This indifference could be another way to solve your problem - by saying the general public are largely indifferent to how super powered people conduct themselves, and that as a consequence they wouldn't care if you became a hero. In truth; they probably care very little about you at all.

I think Paragon is faster paced than the real world. So it's focused more on action than on intent. (When lots of things are happening at such a fast pace, you don't always have time to focus on WHY.) As such, I guess our actions that define us. There's no such thing as "hero" or "villain" in the identity sense, the people of Paragon don't care who you are deep down. All they care about is what you do. So what makes someone "heroic" is that they do heroic things, rather than that they have heroic ideals, or a heroic past. I think this feeds into the general indifference I mentioned earlier that the public has towards the super powered population. All they care about is what happens. All they care about is survival.

So the people of Paragon would be, as a coping mechanism to living with super powered people, largely indifferent to you. (Which would in turn make it much easier for them to forgive you. There is, after all, a much worse villain around the corner...) This gives you a fantastic RP oppurtunity. You could say that the government didn't care enough to do anything so you became a hero. Or you could say they didn't care and left your fate up to the super powered community. ("Us vs them" mentality.) Or the government could make an example out of you to teach the super powered population a lesson...

I think what you need to figure out is that if your character is going to have a hard time going from rogue to hero, just what is it that makes him so special? Why is he a problem case? What will the Paragon City Government have on him that they won't have seen hundreds of times before with other villains becoming heroes? I get that perhaps you don't like the in-game process, but that is sadly just how it is. To say that EVERY villain seeking redemption has a massive uphil struggle is nothing short of godmodding. Some writers may want to say that their villains are so powerful that the government are more than happy to turn the other cheek. Some writers might say that their villains are shades of grey heroes. Some writers might even just say that the government doesn't care because it only takes two days and all is forgiven. (Changing badge-titles non-withstanding ;) )

The point is: if your character is going be an exception to the system, then you have to explain why your character is exceptional. Why is this transition harder for your character than everyone else who has done it?

My suggestion: If you want your character to be hunted despite also being a hero (as a way to avoid people saying "lol why are they hunting you? they didn't hunt me...") simply say that one of the people he killed/robbed/etc was the child of a senior Paragonian politician. That would make you an exception. It would also allow other player characters the option of siding with you or against you, despite you now being a hero.

[SovereignFist]

The point is: if your character is going be an exception to the system, then you have to explain why your character is exceptional. Why is this transition harder for your character than everyone else who has done it?

The exception is that Fist is incredibly stupid. The complications are pretty much all his own creation.

In this example, Im less talking about the idea of someone being actively hunted by "real" heroes, and more about the mundane stuff that would be involved with such a switch, such as the legality of citizenship in such a situation, and secret identities (or not so secret) and the obtaining of things necessary for day to day life.

Sure, I mean, it's easy to gloss over these things, and Im normally perfectly fine with it. This isn't a major plot driver or anything, more just something to chit chat about when nothing else seems to be going on.

I was also more curious about how others viewed side switching as well. I know some do well thought out plots involving clemency agreements or SG probations and such, and others just handwave it all.

While the "Paragon easily forgives and forgets" thing is the obvious answer, IMO it's also not a very satisfying one.

[RedSwitchblade]

You could always add that he's not actually regulated by the FBSA, and so he's not technically a registered hero, but he's been so very... moral... that nobody's raised arms against him given his deeds in his newfound alignment.

That isn't to say you couldn't RP a 'shadowing' by a third party to assess his intentions.