CoH may have competiton in the real or Hero MMORPG!

[Liquidiz]

I read that DC and Sony may be doing a Superhero MMORPG based on the characters we have grown to love. But now it's official.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/626/626820p1.html

I don't know if I would jump ships, this game would ahve to blow CoH out of the water for me to even consider it.

I hope they go the route of an ultra-mmorpg, which basically just means all the characters, stories, etc exist on one super server so everyone that is playing the game would actually be able to meet, instead of now where I haven't ventured off the virtue server when i was in game.

[Tarberetta]

Just because it's SOE will cause many to stay away :lol:

[Liquidiz]

SWG wasn't bad. :sarcasm:

[Seadevil]

This has me very excited and very skeptical at the same time.

On one hand, the thing is finally official. It will be coming out.

On the other hand, it's SOE. Their track record speaks for itself.

I'm going to remain hopeful, however, and pray that the game does the DCU justice.

[Jade_Dragon]

I can hear the "Everquest in tights" talk now. :D

[Redcat]

well I certainly hope SWG is not bad since I'm paying for three SWG accounts lol.

[Redcat]

though personnelly I'd buy a Marvel MMORPG before a DC one just because I've always been able to get into the Marvel comics more then the DC comics.

[Remianen]

It will suck, solely because SOE is behind it.

To date, SOE has yet to do an original game. They BOUGHT EverQuest (and ran it into the ground trying to make it "casual friendly"). Star Wars was already an established franchise long before the MMO genre got off the ground. And even with a money in the bank franchise, they STILL managed to screw it up. If anyone here can tell me SWG's first year went perfectly, speak now. :p Half the crap they promised in BETA didn't get into the game until the first expansion was released.


Anyway, I am convinced that there is absolutely no creativity within the monolith that calls itself Sony Online Entertainment. They'll steal all the little features they can from CoH and WoW, and any other halfway popular MMO, put it together in a mish mash of a game devoid of any personality of its own, and market the shizzle out of it.


Just call me Nostradamus. :lol:

[sheld0n]

Star Wars was already an established franchise long before the MMO genre got off the ground. And even with a money in the bank franchise, they STILL managed to screw it up.

Well, to be fair, Star Wars franchise has a long history of screw ups. SWG is like a monument set in honor of their mediocrity.

[WingedAvenger]

To date, SOE has yet to do an original game.Tanarus, Infantry, Cosmic Rift, EverQuest, and Planetside are pretty danged original in my book. Unless you consider all MMORPGs to be a ripoff of The Realm, in which case Cryptic and Blizzard are full of unoriginal hacks too.


They BOUGHT EverQuest (and ran it into the ground trying to make it "casual friendly")/One thing that a lot of people don't realize is that Verant Interactive was originally built on Sony's money. They have always had a hand in the creation and evolution of EQ. Verant was never at any point in time a completely independent company. The "buyout" was little more than the elimination of the Verant name and the establishment of the SOE name.


Star Wars was already an established franchise long before the MMO genre got off the ground. And even with a money in the bank franchise, they STILL managed to screw it up. If anyone here can tell me SWG's first year went perfectly, speak now. :p Half the crap they promised in BETA didn't get into the game until the first expansion was released.True, but this is actually quite common. How much stuff was promised in CoH beta that we still don't have?


Anyway, I am convinced that there is absolutely no creativity within the monolith that calls itself Sony Online Entertainment. They'll steal all the little features they can from CoH and WoW, and any other halfway popular MMO, put it together in a mish mash of a game devoid of any personality of its own, and market the shizzle out of it.All MMORPG companies steal ideas from each other. At the same time, different companies are able to see problems in other games and take steps to avoid them in their own, including SOE (EQ2 was extremely well designed to eliminate all the classic issues EQ1 suffered from). Is there anything wrong with that? Not necessarily. Everyone's going to try and make the best game possible, which means everyone's going to use a few of the same concepts because they know they work. You just have to choose the one that you enjoy the most. ;)

[Randomus]

True, but this is actually quite common. How much stuff was promised in CoH beta that we still don't have?

I believe he was referring to the crippling bugs that plagued the game, but I could be wrong. In any case, SoE can't be held entirely responsible for content issues. They publish and maintain games (badly), they don't make them. A common misconception is that a game published by a company must have been developped by said company.

[inkblaster]

Well, let's go with that theory, how good would COH be if SOE ran it as opposed to NCSoft?

[Randomus]

The publisher does have a measure of creative control over the game, however. So I'm inclined to say it would a) have more bugs and b) have even less Nazis and c) have terrible, terrible customer support.

But I'm somewhat biased against SoE in that regard.

[WingedAvenger]

I believe he was referring to the crippling bugs that plagued the game, but I could be wrong. In any case, SoE can't be held entirely responsible for content issues. They publish and maintain games (badly), they don't make them. A common misconception is that a game published by a company must have been developped by said company.In a lot of cases that's true. CoH is published by NCSoft, but developed by Cryptic. Asheron's Call is published by Microsoft, but developed by Turbine. EverQuest, on the other hand, is both developed and published by SOE (as is SWG and Planetside).

You could say that back when EQ started, it was being developed by Verant and published by SOE, but since the "buyout" that would no longer be accurate.

[Apollinaris]

Well first of all, no offense but if CoH were a SoE game I think we'd have...

A) Lower subscribtion fees with $120 fee for an annual subscription.
B) Updates wouldn't be shoveled into massive "issues".
C) We wouldn't be discussing a raise in price for CoV.
D) Expansion packs would be more common.

[Plasma Wisp]

Well first of all, no offense but if CoH were a SoE game I think we'd have...

A) Lower subscribtion fees with $120 fee for an annual subscription.
B) Updates wouldn't be shoveled into massive "issues".
C) We wouldn't be discussing a raise in price for CoV.
D) Expansion packs would be more common.

:cool: Ah yes, but with D, you'd be paying more for a fee and the expansion pack. We may pay more, but the content is free due to the price. 15 x 4 that's 60$ the cost of expansion packs are almost as much as the game. 60$ + 45. Instead, we pay the normal 60$ for the game and new content every four months.

:mad: Ya know, people need to stop being dicks to Cryptic. They're the best IMHO developer next to the Freedom Force people. They love their game a whole lot to be apart of the community. They're down here, not up in the heavens like the gods of other games. Servers are super stable compared to WoW and it pisses me off how these guys are making sure their product is good and fun and some just kick 'em into the ground then ask for more things.

[Liquidiz]

I will switch automatically if they can figure out a way to employ CoH initial idea, where you got to choose ur powers, your origin also effected ur stamina, etc. That was a good system its just ppl would have gimped them selves while others would have been uber.

[Jade_Dragon]

Well, let's go with that theory, how good would COH be if SOE ran it as opposed to NCSoft?

Don't even ASK questions like that...

[shivers in a corner whimpering]

Or even worse, how much worse could EA be?

[Emerald Sky]

:cool: Ah yes, but with D, you'd be paying more for a fee and the expansion pack. We may pay more, but the content is free due to the price. 15 x 4 that's 60$ the cost of expansion packs are almost as much as the game. 60$ + 45. Instead, we pay the normal 60$ for the game and new content every four months.

:mad: Ya know, people need to stop being dicks to Cryptic. They're the best IMHO developer next to the Freedom Force people. They love their game a whole lot to be apart of the community. They're down here, not up in the heavens like the gods of other games. Servers are super stable compared to WoW and it pisses me off how these guys are making sure their product is good and fun and some just kick 'em into the ground then ask for more things.

People love to bitch, and they will do so no matter what unfortunately. In this day and age, you can NOT please everyone, because everyone has different needs/wants. Here's a perfect example. I'm a stock clerk at my part-time job in a supermarket. I have been yelled at before within a span of ten minutes for A) having bananas that are too ripe and B) having bananas that aren't ripe enough by two different customers. The worst part is that they bitch about it like there's really something I can do about it.

The bottom line is that people are spoiled. Some feel that just because they pay for a service it gives them the right to treat the other person they're dealing with like they just kicked their dog or something. I can't count the amount of times that I've seen people yell at employees while I'm either working (or shopping in any other store setting) and then they're rationale is "well, I can, I'm the customer". That's BS. There is nothing in this world that gives a person the right to treat another like crap. It's just inexcusable. I don't care what their reasoning is.

[Emerald Sky]

I will switch automatically if they can figure out a way to employ CoH initial idea, where you got to choose ur powers, your origin also effected ur stamina, etc. That was a good system its just ppl would have gimped them selves while others would have been uber.

A system with no balance is a good system? You're not serious are you???

[Mahaf]

People love to bitch, and they will do so no matter what unfortunately. In this day and age, you can NOT please everyone, because everyone has different needs/wants. Here's a perfect example. I'm a stock clerk at my part-time job in a supermarket. I have been yelled at before within a span of ten minutes for A) having bananas that are too ripe and B) having bananas that aren't ripe enough by two different customers. The worst part is that they bitch about it like there's really something I can do about it.

The bottom line is that people are spoiled. Some feel that just because they pay for a service it gives them the right to treat the other person they're dealing with like they just kicked their dog or something. I can't count the amount of times that I've seen people yell at employees while I'm either working (or shopping in any other store setting) and then they're rationale is "well, I can, I'm the customer". That's BS. There is nothing in this world that gives a person the right to treat another like crap. It's just inexcusable. I don't care what their reasoning is.
Right, but you just stereotyped a lot of people because of about 3% of them. Not everyone treats people like crap. But, you don't hear about those who don't, because they don't make the big scene. You can't say just because people don't like Cryptic that they're spoiled or treating them like crap. Cryptic might be a good dev team in regards of working with the community, but let me ask you this: How many times is the community ACTUALLY right? How many times do you hear the community ACTUALLY working for balance? Every customer is biased, because they each have their own character they need to look out for(I'm/you're/they're not above this, and I am guilty of it a lot actually). So to say that makes them a dev team above criticism is wrong. Fact is, they HAVE promised things back in beta that aren't here yet (Staves, anyone?). Fact is, there's NO other dev team out there that's making people pay extra a month for an expansion pack in addition to having to pay for the program(Though this, more than likely, is NCSoft). No one should be treated like crap, but no one is above criticism.

Every dev team loves their game, if they didn't they wouldn't be a developer. Putting that much work into something only to not love it wouldn't allow you to make a career of it.

[Jade_Dragon]

However, if you have a large enough group of people, and they represent a balance of the available choices, then their advice will overall be balanced. You may have to reach a compromise between mutually exclusive positions, but you can usually analyse the trends as a whole.

And I will go so far as to say that people ARE spoiled. Most people hide it well, but in the end, it's just human nature to see the world as that which is touched directly by you. You cannot see from any point of view other than your own. You, yourself are demonstrating that by expressing an opinion.

[Emerald Sky]

That number is MUCH higher than 3%. Maybe because I'm in the NE it's different, but the number is much higher, especially regarding anything dealing with the public/customers.

[Mahaf]

However, if you have a large enough group of people, and they represent a balance of the available choices, then their advice will overall be balanced. You may have to reach a compromise between mutually exclusive positions, but you can usually analyse the trends as a whole.
Right, but what kind of percentage of players post on the main boards? What kind of percentage of them actually DO try to attempt ANY kind of balance? What percentage are just there to rant? Either way you look at it, the interaction Cryptic has with their customers just isn't enough to warrant making changes to the game based upon it.

That number is MUCH higher than 3%. Maybe because I'm in the NE it's different, but the number is much higher, especially regarding anything dealing with the public/customers.
Doubtful, since pretty much EVERY person in the country deals in some way with the public/is a customer. Even if it's someone every day of the year, that's 365 out of the thousands in your area. Not very many, considering a lot of cities boast over 10,000 people.

[Jade_Dragon]

Right, but what kind of percentage of players post on the main boards? What kind of percentage of them actually DO try to attempt ANY kind of balance? What percentage are just there to rant? Either way you look at it, the interaction Cryptic has with their customers just isn't enough to warrant making changes to the game based upon it.

You're assuming that they do. :D

[Mahaf]

You're assuming that they do. :D
Hah, you have an excellent point. ;) Recently, it seems they've been taking a lot of things with a grain of salt. That's not bad nor good itself, just depends on what they do because of it.

[Emerald Sky]

Doubtful, since pretty much EVERY person in the country deals in some way with the public/is a customer. Even if it's someone every day of the year, that's 365 out of the thousands in your area. Not very many, considering a lot of cities boast over 10,000 people.

It's a lot more than one person each day. Work in retail for a day and you'll see for yourself.

[Morcalivan7]

I like that I can place my characters into a video game. Aside from that I could care less who's developing because they all have crap for customer support. As long as it's a fairly decent environment with variety of options, it's just another game and am fine with that.

Planetside was the best FPS made to date btw.

[inkblaster]

Ok, here are my issues with the game:
Lack of anything to do but fight.
promised content with no definitive timeframe means nothing.
Shapeshifting
Underwater stuff
Skills
etc, the whole 'soon' thing gets tiring after a year.

What I like about Cryptic, the lead designers are very into the genre. Jack Emmert lives and breathes comics, and now with CoV, Zeb Cook is on board. They have their comic being written by Mark Waid now, they could do a lot worse.

What weighs in SOE's favor for a DC game are the following:

If they come out with a hero MMO, and $5 over the CoH price(or probably the same if you subscribe to CoV), and you can play a half dozen other games. I already have SWG and EQ bought, and I'm sure quite a few million other folks do so that's a plus.

In the COH world, there is no prior lore, heroes can only do what the devs say they can do, so we don't have shapeshifting/grapples because heroes don't have those, there's no precedence.

In the DC world, you have Beast Boy, Martian Manhunter, shapeshifting is there, in their face, they have to deal with it. Batman, their posterboy for skills, also uses a grapple, gotta have it.
Underwater zones, where else would you find Aquaman? And outerspace, gotta have missions from the Watchtower. There's a lot to cover, but with their existing lore they can be held to it.

If they release in 2007, that's a lot of time to study where Cryptic went wrong. The hastened archetype system is a big oops, big time. Hopefully SOE will see this and do something more in tune with PnP rpgs.

The recent acquisition of MxO shows they aren't beyond testing new systems, that and I liked the concept of EQII's tree system much better.

The slow to release additional content, SOE is anything but slow, they push for 3 expansions a year for EQ, yes you pay for those, but only if you need them. Playing EQ I hardly ever went to Velious, Kunark on the other hand, gotta have it, especially for levels 15-20.

I wouldn't mind if COH's expansions had more content but were selectable. Ink was already over 20 when the Hollows hit, almost 30 when Striga came out, now it's at least 2 months from Croatoa's release, and he's already 35, yay, I miss out on content if I don't roll a new character and level them slow waiting for each release.

Now, I may seem like I'm blowing SOE's trumpet a little, I'm not a big fan of theirs. I got burned with SWG, big time(who else has fancy glasses for $30 more?). EQII also landed on it's face out of the gate. But I'm also getting slowly roasted by COH, $15 a month is a low simmer, it is my money, my time, and if it can be spent better elsewhere, it will be.

I will definately try to get in Beta for the DC game, and here are some items I think could definately differentiate it from COH.

Underwater/outer space zones
Multiple Cities instead of one.
Different origins mean something(natural heroes can shoot lasers out their eyes how?)
Skill points/tree
Drawbacks/Weaknesses
Fight alongside staple heroes.(possible GM run events where you actually SEE the main heroes do something, Statesman will be reserved for big events? WHEN?!)
edit, almost forgot, vehicles.

I've ranted enough.

[Yin]

SOE just has an odd way of doing things with the games they own. For instance, in MxO, if you complete a mission to early, you get no XP. So people have to sit around and wait to defeat the boss or last minion until the timer says so. Can you imagine:

Batman: DON'T HIT IT!
Superman: Why? Just one punch and...
Wonder Woman: Ass. Did you not hear him? If you hit it, we don't get XP.
Superman: Oh. Right. That.
Batman: -growls- F-ing SOE.

The chaos. Oiy. I'm hoping and praying DC notices SOE's trends with developing MMOs and puts their foot down to stop the stupid stuff. DC knows a lot of people are anticipating this, and should know SOE's background pretty well. Hopefully they'll whoop them into shape on getting things done the right way.

[Emerald Sky]

Underwater/outer space zones
Multiple Cities instead of one.
Different origins mean something(natural heroes can shoot lasers out their eyes how?)
Skill points/tree
Drawbacks/Weaknesses
Fight alongside staple heroes.(possible GM run events where you actually SEE the main heroes do something, Statesman will be reserved for big events? WHEN?!)
edit, almost forgot, vehicles.


Well, if they're not releasing theirs til 2007, then COH still has time to get some of the above into theirs. And don't kid yourself either, SOE will do what all developers do and promise some of the above and not deliver. I've seen it in every MMO I've played. Some stuff just will NOT make the cut.

Also, regarding vehicles, I PM'd States about that. I wasn't looking for any specific dates, but I did get this out of him:

A little later than soon.

OK, not much, but I do believe when we get vehicles here it will be as diverse as the character creator was at launch and what the base builder is supposed to be for COV. I really believe we'll have that amount of flexibility in designing our vehicles.

[Liquidiz]

A system with no balance is a good system? You're not serious are you???

I mean if they can create a similar system, but balance it thats all i meant, if that meant attribute points to allocated, and ppl got a certain amount, if one chooses to use all his points on strength and Durability then they will end up like a hulk...but spreading them out could create a Rogue type but never a Superman...thats all.

I just want to have more freedom when creating my guy, and not having to see another 20 guys with the same power set.

[Randomus]

No matter what system they make, there will be hundreds upon thousands of people using the exact same build. That's just the way things work. I'm more concerned about the costume creator and the game content-- where do our heroes fit in in a world already filled to bursting with superheroes? Also I hope the graphics don't suck.

Basically I hope it's a good game. If it is, I'll check it out. I don't think I'd leave CoH unless it was a zillion times better, though.

[Liquidiz]

I was thinking the same thing, in Paragon Heroes are a everyday thing, they take the bus for God's sake. In the DC universe much like the Marvel, but more so in DC, the idea of secret identity may play a role, it may not we'll have to see,

can you imagine if you actually have a job and fight crime at the same time...will feel how stressed out Spiderman is. Or we could be born in to riches and hero on our free time....actually i don't think secret identity can work...but i just don't want them to create a CoH clone cause if they do, i wont even bother playing that game b/c CoH already has that style nailed down.

No matter what system they make, there will be hundreds upon thousands of people using the exact same build.

I beg to differ, i only do b/c i remember the boards per-beta days, b4 they scrapped the old system and decided to build the new system from scratch. And there where alot of different types of heroes ppl where making, aside from the Superman (or any other hero) clones, you rarely found two ppl the same powers, yeah you may get many shapeshifters but they complimented there powers differently...some of you might remember, this is way back when ppl where affraid to show names b/c they thought it would get stolen.

[Randomus]

The pre-beta community was very small, comparably. Once "the formula" for each character had been found, you can bet your garters that 90% of the people playing that character type would be carbon copies, powers-wise.

A secret identity system would be interesting, but I think it would have to be essentially the same as the skills system CoH is developing.

[WingedAvenger]

Over time, players tend to gravitate toward the strongest build, whatever that may be. This is true in all MMORPGs.

[Jade_Dragon]

Over time, players tend to gravitate toward the strongest build, whatever that may be. This is true in all MMORPGs.

Also, people in beta testing, particularly early beta testing, don't necessarily end up representing the largest population of the playerbase in the release. Just because beta testers didn't choose the strongest build every time doesn't mean the powergamers won't.

And clearly, it was enough of a problem that the devs recognized it. There WERE players who were choosing the strongest build because it gave them an advantage, and those who were gimped and unable to play the game.

Assuming this DC game really does make it to release, they will face the same problem, and they will make the SAME decisions. Even if they go with a skill system, they will still have to organize the skills into a heirarchy as in SWG. And given that SWG has abandoned the skill system in favor of levels and classes, it's likely that SOE will do the same with DC.

No developer has ever made an MMORPG without the goal of it being balanced.

[Gold Rush]

I am not very enthusiastic over this.

Aside from the Sony issue (which, like many, I don't trust),

Aside from the power sets,

Aside from balances,

Aside from Marvel wanting to get into the game (Okay, this is an aside within an aside: Marvel has their hopes for an MMO, too. Although, I don't think it will be worth it content wise and hope it won't be worth it for Marvel financially. Given their lawsuit happy history),

Aside from all these, for me, there is an even bigger point of there being too many heroes.

You see, both Marvel and DC have established heroes. Now, will players be able to play in the role of Batman? Superman? Spiderman? Hulk? I do not think so. Basically, you will make a hero within these already crowded communities of heroes. So, at least I feel, you will be less than special in the world.

Will we actually get to adventure beside these famous heroes? Possibly, but most likely not. I can see it being like SWG, where famous characters are, at best, places/contacts to carry out missions with. A bland sort of way to utilize such characters. Now, perhaps players will battle the likes of the Joker or Venom, but that's not a big enough draw for me. And can you imagine the traffic of heroes going in and out of the Fortress of Solitude or the Batcave? Kinda breaks suspension of disbelief right there.

While I like the universes, I have serious doubts that either attempt at creating them for an online gaming community will be great or fantastic to me as a player. Sure, I could bring up Star Wars Galaxies, but we all know how that is going (although, I haven't been back for a LONG time, but I was so put off, I really don't feel like giving it a second chance).

Also, about the Secret Identites issue. All fine and good, but how will this be implemented in-game? My first response is "BORING"! I want to be a hero, not an accountant. Now, I know there are work arounds this thing (like having it make you money/credits/influence in the background or giving you access to certain equipment/contacts). It *could* work, but if it will take too much time to learn crafting and too much effort, I am not looking forward to it. Granted, such things have been addressed in recent MMORPGs to squelch this particular complaint of mine, but then why bother with it in the first place? Just have it operating in the backgound somewhere. Now, it would PYSCHE me if they could incorporate secret identities more fully to actually be a game (RP) within itself. Something like the labortory you are working for gets broken into and the DNA samples you are working on show up in blood samples from street gangsters and you have to solve this or risk getting bought out by Lex Luthor.

I kinda doubt that sorta in-depth development to one's civilian identity would happen.

Perhaps the only thing that may make it work for me is if the broaden the scope of where one could adventure. Not just limit it to one city, but many cities. Examples would include New York, Paris, Tokyo, Berlin, etc. Hopefully a hero could call one of these cities their home (since most DC/Marvel heroes tend to hang out in America or more precisely, New York city). From there, it would be nice to go into the galactic arena, but, again, I have doubt that this aspect would be developed anythime soon. Sure, the Earth will recieve aliens and invasions, but to roam around such as a Green Lantern or Silver Surfer dispensing justice world to world...I don't see it.

And what about copy-cat heroes? While DC may allow some creative allowances for players, I do not see Marvel doing so as well. And to what degree. Granted, most of us do not want to see exact copies of existing heroes, but what if a few folks created a close version of Superman but perhaps changed the color? How connected could one be to their hero? Could one potentially say he is the third cousin on the Father's side of Kal-El's family who was tricked by Mr. Myxlptlk and locked up in a closet when Krypton exploded and he recently escaped Myx's dimension and has wounded up on earth? Could one be a new type of Robin tryout for Batman (Sparrow?)? Would the Spider that bit Peter Parker shortly thereafter go out on a drunken night into town, biting everyone it sees, then hire a female spider prostitute, whom he would make pregnant (he forgot to wear his spider rubber) making thousands of genetically altered Spider Babies that would bite more people??

I can see ALOT of copy-cat heroes out there or at least tying oneself to a legend; nothing too terrible with that, but I can see it start getting overused so there would be a potential 78,359 survivors of Krypton, not counting those who came from a parallel universe or some other round-about notions such as blood transfusions or eating enough Red Kryptonite for breakfast that it changes one into a kryptonian.

I actually prefer to let these properties alone and NOT to transfer them into an online game. I expect to be disappointed in some way, even if SOE were not at the helm. These universes mainly deal with a set group of heroes. While others are welcomed, it would personally start to grate on me if we never saw Batman in action or teamed up with Spiderman ,given the common place occurance of world-ending events in these universes and heroes winding up meeting each other. I would prefer these properties not touched in this way, but I do realize both companies are represented by corporate interests who would like to make money out of their properties in any way feasible. They have a right to do so.

But for sheer style/good taste, I feel it's better to best leave it alone. The experience would be visceral (sp?) at best. Most readers read how adventures go from a certain hero's view and his place in the world. I can't see such a customized view affecting other hero characters. While making RP is nice (and I wouldn't mind something like "Young Heroes in Love"), it'd be high time for a game to support one's RP experiences individually. CoH can get away with it because it's a "new" world and nothing is set in stone, but in DC or Marvel's world? I don't think so.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gold Rush

(SOE....the Hoe' of the online gaming world)

[Jade_Dragon]

[COLOR=Gold]Will we actually get to adventure beside these famous heroes? Possibly, but most likely not. I can see it being like SWG, where famous characters are, at best, places/contacts to carry out missions with. A bland sort of way to utilize such characters. Now, perhaps players will battle the likes of the Joker or Venom, but that's not a big enough draw for me. And can you imagine the traffic of heroes going in and out of the Fortress of Solitude or the Batcave? Kinda breaks suspension of disbelief right there.

Heh. The Fortress of Solitude and Batcave as "theme parks".

[Mahaf]

[COLOR=Gold]
Will we actually get to adventure beside these famous heroes? Possibly, but most likely not. I can see it being like SWG, where famous characters are, at best, places/contacts to carry out missions with. A bland sort of way to utilize such characters. Now, perhaps players will battle the likes of the Joker or Venom, but that's not a big enough draw for me. And can you imagine the traffic of heroes going in and out of the Fortress of Solitude or the Batcave? Kinda breaks suspension of disbelief right there.
You're correct... But when was the last time you fought beside Statesman, or Ms. Liberty? Look at all the traffic in Atlas Park where Ms. Liberty stays. The only difference is the heroes weren't created in a comic book, but then they ARE in comic books now. The dev team here can explain it away, I guess that's what the dev team there will do. <shrug> Maybe they'll surprise us all by having an active team that plays these heroes. I doubt it, but if they don't, it won't completely turn me off from the game. I'll still (More than likely) try it. I don't like SOE either, but I'm willing to at least give this a try.

[Remianen]

Tanarus, Infantry, Cosmic Rift, EverQuest, and Planetside are pretty danged original in my book. Unless you consider all MMORPGs to be a ripoff of The Realm, in which case Cryptic and Blizzard are full of unoriginal hacks too.

Yeah, so are the SIMS. Difference is, those games (except EverQuest and maybe, MAYBE Planetside) aren't even close to being mass-market friendly (which is the goal of every single major MMO developer. No one goes to venture capitalists or pitches their ideas to publishers with, "We wanna be so small, we barely turn a profit....EVER!"). I guess in that respect, Horizons is original ("You can be a DRAGON!" and "Crafting IS our game!!!").


One thing that a lot of people don't realize is that Verant Interactive was originally built on Sony's money. They have always had a hand in the creation and evolution of EQ. Verant was never at any point in time a completely independent company. The "buyout" was little more than the elimination of the Verant name and the establishment of the SOE name.

Ahhh, not quite. Verant's original publisher was 989 Studios (who specialized in sports games, especially for Sony's new console, the Playstation), which at the time, Sony Pictures owned. At some point in mid to late 1998, a decision was made to make 989 into JUST a Playstation platform sports publisher. The switchover was planned in phases. If you have them, look at your original EverQuest discs and see that 989 wasn't phased out completely until after the Velious expansion. Anyway, then EverQuest was released and some astute paper pusher at Sony got a bright idea. And, in 2000, Sony bought the privately held Verant Interactive (which was originally formed by John Smedley as RedEye Studios before the name change was made prior to EQ's release). This purchase wasn't without its hangups since Verant was heavily employee owned. But Brad owned a nice chunk and Smed "sold out" for the management position in a company without bottomless pockets. Brad couldn't take the money and run because he was still on the hook for 2 expansions for the crown jewel. But as soon as those obligations were met, he bailed and took his friends with him. Here (http://www.gamasutra.com/newswire/news/index20000529.htm) is a link to a news article announcing the purchase. And a quote from here: (http://www.answers.com/topic/everquest)

Development

While the original concept is credited to Brad McQuaid, Steve Clover, and Bill Trost, much of the actual design was done by Brian Canary, Ryan Palacio, Roger Uzun and Geoffrey "GZ" Zatkin. Many other people have worked on EQ's design through the many updates and expansion packs that have been released as the service has operated continually since 1999.

989 Studios funded development and initially published the game, before Verant Interactive took management after 989 Studios unilaterally canceled all of its PC projects. Sony Online Entertainment later purchased Verant, and SOE runs and distributes EverQuest currently.


True, but this is actually quite common. How much stuff was promised in CoH beta that we still don't have?

I have no idea. I wasn't interested in CoH while it was in beta. If it weren't for a slow summer for raids, I wouldn't have started playing CoH at all probably.


All MMORPG companies steal ideas from each other.

Perhaps. But no one is as blatant about it as SOE. Want examples? Instancing ("It's too resource intensive"....."Damn, people are eating that stuff up in other games! Let's put it together and call it an expansion") and the worst one of all in my view, casual catering (what other people call "the dumbing down of EverQuest), which was a concept blatantly STOLEN from newer games since EQ had always been a time-intensive game up to that point. How do you turn a bull (EQ at its height) into a heifer (EQ now)? You start by castrating it...

At the same time, different companies are able to see problems in other games and take steps to avoid them in their own, including SOE (EQ2 was extremely well designed to eliminate all the classic issues EQ1 suffered from). Is there anything wrong with that? Not necessarily. Everyone's going to try and make the best game possible, which means everyone's going to use a few of the same concepts because they know they work. You just have to choose the one that you enjoy the most. ;)

What classic issues? Time consuming travel? There were ways around that (make friends with a rapid travel class). The inability to order pizza ingame? Harsh death penalties (simple. Don't die. Start by not grouping with...umm..."special" people.). I can think of one: required classes (think: warrior, cleric, enchanter), but the solution other games have come up with is a simple case of homogenization. Everyone can heal "equally well", everyone can tank passably, etc. And fixed loot tables caused some bickering but that was easily solved as well (point based loot awarding).

Choosing the one I enjoy most is easier said than done. I loved EQ (because it required time and effort to advance) until it was....well, turned into a heifer. I like bits and pieces of several games but none of them has that level of relative difficulty or time and effort requirement as EQ once had.

My point about originality is this. There isn't a single new, innovative thing in the EverQuest of today that isn't a retread of what existed when the original team was in place (so that would be, shortly before the Shadows of Luclin expansion was released, though a few folks stayed behind until Sigil's concept was fully fleshed out). Ring encounters? Kendrick (John Capozzi) did that in Luclin. Zonewide AEs? Was done and scrapped at the last minute (which led to Acrylia being the cesspool it is). There are some very creative people on the team right now (Jonathan "Prathun" Caraker) is one hell of an encounter designer, though a bit sadistic :lol: ; and Ryan "Rytan" Barker and Travis "Rashere" McGeathy are imaginative too) but their hands are tied by the morons in management who won't let them do anything that may offend any portion of the playerbase ("Wait, you mean they have to cooperate with several other players and RAID to obtain the best gear in the game? No no no, you've gotta put that on vendors so they can do painfully easy XP missions to rack up points and buy those things. We don't want to inconvenience anyone, do we?" :rolleyes: ).

Anyway, I stand by my prediction. I haven't seen SOE do anything truly original (whether it be a game mechanic or concept) since maybe 2002 (or whenever the fully functional bazaar was released).

[WingedAvenger]

Yeah, so are the SIMS. Difference is, those games (except EverQuest and maybe, MAYBE Planetside) aren't even close to being mass-market friendly (which is the goal of every single major MMO developer. No one goes to venture capitalists or pitches their ideas to publishers with, "We wanna be so small, we barely turn a profit....EVER!"). I guess in that respect, Horizons is original ("You can be a DRAGON!" and "Crafting IS our game!!!").True. Tanarus, Infantry, and Cosmic Rift are smaller market games, but that by no means translates to SOE = unoriginal, which was the original point I was refuting.

Ahhh, not quite. Verant's original publisher was 989 Studios (who specialized in sports games, especially for Sony's new console, the Playstation), which at the time, Sony Pictures owned. At some point in mid to late 1998, a decision was made to make 989 into JUST a Playstation platform sports publisher. The switchover was planned in phases. If you have them, look at your original EverQuest discs and see that 989 wasn't phased out completely until after the Velious expansion. Anyway, then EverQuest was released and some astute paper pusher at Sony got a bright idea. And, in 2000, Sony bought the privately held Verant Interactive (which was originally formed by John Smedley as RedEye Studios before the name change was made prior to EQ's release). This purchase wasn't without its hangups since Verant was heavily employee owned. But Brad owned a nice chunk and Smed "sold out" for the management position in a company without bottomless pockets. Brad couldn't take the money and run because he was still on the hook for 2 expansions for the crown jewel. But as soon as those obligations were met, he bailed and took his friends with him.You know, I forgot about the 989 Studios connection, but since they are also a Sony company what I said is still accurate. At no time was Verant developing EQ without support from Sony.

Perhaps. But no one is as blatant about it as SOE. Want examples? Instancing ("It's too resource intensive"....."Damn, people are eating that stuff up in other games! Let's put it together and call it an expansion")It's called marketing, and frankly, Lost Dungeons of Norrath was one of the better expansions they ever did IMO. And I certainly would not call that expansion unoriginal. Far from it.

and the worst one of all in my view, casual catering (what other people call "the dumbing down of EverQuest), which was a concept blatantly STOLEN from newer games since EQ had always been a time-intensive game up to that point. How do you turn a bull (EQ at its height) into a heifer (EQ now)? You start by castrating it...CoH is getting dumbed down a lot now too, especially with I5 on the way. But after a while, it becomes necessary. EQ was not a perfect game when it was released, and it really broke a lot of new ground for what it was at the time. No one had ever played nor developed a game quite like it ever before, and within the first couple of years, scores of issues and problems were discovered that the game designers had never concieved as a possibility of happening. So the game had to adapt to help correct them. Part of that adaptation was making the game easier for new players to get in and get interested. I always found it somewhat ironic that the power gamers who complained so loudly about the "dumbing down" of EQ (changes which ultimately affected them not: "Newbies get a free backpack? Sacreligious!") wouldn't even have a game to play were it not for SOE fishing for new dollars.

Cryptic and NCSoft want new dollars too, which is why we'll soon have XP debt cut in half during missions, and no XP debt acquired until level 10. Expect more of the same in the coming months/years.

What classic issues? Time consuming travel? There were ways around that (make friends with a rapid travel class). The inability to order pizza ingame? Harsh death penalties (simple. Don't die. Start by not grouping with...umm..."special" people.). I can think of one: required classes (think: warrior, cleric, enchanter), but the solution other games have come up with is a simple case of homogenization. Everyone can heal "equally well", everyone can tank passably, etc. And fixed loot tables caused some bickering but that was easily solved as well (point based loot awarding).Actually I was thinking of real problems EQ1 had, like killstealing, ninjalooting, training mobs, an easily exploitable trade window, etc. SOE unintentionally showed the MMORPG landscape what types of problems you could have in your game, and now every new game that comes out uniquely avoids them. How's that for idea stealing? :p

My point about originality is this. There isn't a single new, innovative thing in the EverQuest of today that isn't a retread of what existed when the original team was in place (so that would be, shortly before the Shadows of Luclin expansion was released, though a few folks stayed behind until Sigil's concept was fully fleshed out).Respectfully, I disagree with that, and point to PoP and LDoN as examples. (I don't know about GoD and OoW, since I stopped played EQ myself around that time.)

Anyway, I stand by my prediction. I haven't seen SOE do anything truly original (whether it be a game mechanic or concept) since maybe 2002 (or whenever the fully functional bazaar was released).I think the old skill system in SWG was pretty original, but I guess that's just my opinion. I'm certainly not going to discount SOE in making the DC Comics-themed superhero MMORPG simply because they are SOE. I imagine that some of the game's content could mirror stuff we have in CoH now, due largely to the fact that it's the same genre. But I will withhold any nay-saying until I actually experience it for myself, because like so many other companies, SOE itself has also learned from its own mistakes.

[iggy880]

I doubt I'd leave. I may do beta if I can but CoH and everything else I play is taking up so much of my time. I barely have had time for CoH lately. Not to mention, I'm more of a Marvel fan myself.

[Remianen]

I like WingedAvenger :)

While I wasn't one of those railing against newbies starting off with a backpack and standing in front of their guildmaster, I did think they would miss out on moments that later on would create hilarity (like, forgetting to remap the attack key (A) then trying to speak to the NPC they have targeted and being whacked as a result). My issue with the devs was their intent to take the ONLY raid-centric, socially driven MMO on the planet (i.e. if you didn't raid, you wouldn't have the best gear which would mean you couldn't go after the most challenging encounters with any expectation of victory) and turned it into Fantasy_MMO_478. That was the one thing that set EQ1 apart from its competitors. Wanna see Veeshan's Peak/Sleeper's Tomb/Temple of Veeshan/Vex Thal/Plane of Time/Txevu/Tacvi/Citadel of Anguish less than 2 years after the relative expansion came out? You must raid and you must ally yourself with others who wish to do the exact same thing (and are willing to put in the time necessary to get it done). No other game before or since has forced people to socialize to such a degree. I fear, no other game will EVER force people to socialize to ANY real degree. In every major game since EQ's release, you can solo your way to max level and just join pickup raids to get the top gear so your reputation (or lack thereof) means nothing. That's where my lament derives.

LDoN was by no means original. Anarchy Online (they of the disastrous release) did it better two years before LDoN. No collapsing instances, no having to do 100+ "missions" before you could afford to get anything worth spending points on (as was the case for anyone under level 50, for an expansion touted as being for level 20+), none of that.

I know many folks who believe LDoN was EQ's best expansion (I would say Velious was) but PoP?!? The expansion that fully stated the stratification of the playerbase ("You can't enter this zone because you don't raid"). I guess the travel options and conveniences offered by the Plane of Knowledge was worth not having access to 80% of the expansion's zones? Heck, I did have access to those zones (was elemental flagged within 3 months of the expansion's release) but still felt it was wrong to close off the majority of zones to the entire non-raiding playerbase. But to just open up stuff to folks with no effort required at all (beyond simply levelling) IMO was wrong.

After thinking on it a bit, you're right. There are a lot of things SOE innovated that other games have learned from. Like, not having a codebase described (by your own coders) as "spaghetti code". Not having a graphics engine that's impossible to upgrade smoothly. Actually having a customer service department (instead of saying it but not proving it). I don't think killstealing, ninjalooting, or training were that big of a problem, personally. And EVERYTHING in EverQuest was easily exploitable. Or did ShowEQ and Macroquest not teach us anything?

You make many good points, though I don't necessarily agree with them. Like, the expansion that forced my guild to drastically reduce our entry requirements just so we could field a "decent" (by that expansion's standards) raid force being one of the best expansions. But, like beauty, I guess originality is in the eye of the beholder. If you've never been exposed to a mechanic or concept before, seeing it for the first time might make it original to you. I thought LDoN was original too....until some guildmates told me to check out AO, which had been doing things in instanced form for years prior to LDoN's conception. There wasn't anything in PoP that I saw that was original (oh, fast travel options? Didn't Asheron's Call do that prior to PoP? Hard locks preventing non-raiders from entering zones? Hail, Veeshan's Peak and Sleeper's Tomb and Vex Thal. Sleeper's less so since Zlandicar's talisman has always been droppable, etc). But it may be just a matter of perception.

[WingedAvenger]

That was the one thing that set EQ1 apart from its competitors. Wanna see Veeshan's Peak/Sleeper's Tomb/Temple of Veeshan/Vex Thal/Plane of Time/Txevu/Tacvi/Citadel of Anguish less than 2 years after the relative expansion came out? You must raid and you must ally yourself with others who wish to do the exact same thing (and are willing to put in the time necessary to get it done). No other game before or since has forced people to socialize to such a degree. I fear, no other game will EVER force people to socialize to ANY real degree. In every major game since EQ's release, you can solo your way to max level and just join pickup raids to get the top gear so your reputation (or lack thereof) means nothing. That's where my lament derives.I can agree with that. In much the same way that there will never be another band that did what the Beatles did, there will also never be another computer game that did what EQ did. ;)


LDoN was by no means original. Anarchy Online (they of the disastrous release) did it better two years before LDoN. No collapsing instances, no having to do 100+ "missions" before you could afford to get anything worth spending points on (as was the case for anyone under level 50, for an expansion touted as being for level 20+), none of that.Instanced zones were done before LDoN, that's true. But to say that AO did it "better"... I suppose that's a matter of perception. Plus I quite liked the design and flavor of the LDoN zones, as well as the different mission types.


I know many folks who believe LDoN was EQ's best expansion (I would say Velious was) but PoP?!? The expansion that fully stated the stratification of the playerbase ("You can't enter this zone because you don't raid"). I guess the travel options and conveniences offered by the Plane of Knowledge was worth not having access to 80% of the expansion's zones? Heck, I did have access to those zones (was elemental flagged within 3 months of the expansion's release) but still felt it was wrong to close off the majority of zones to the entire non-raiding playerbase. But to just open up stuff to folks with no effort required at all (beyond simply levelling) IMO was wrong.I don't take issue with the fact that there was almost nothing for characters from 1-45 to do in PoP (save for PoK) because frankly, there is (or was) already too much in Norrath for them to do already. EQ doesn't need more zones for low to mid-range characters. There are lots of zones already -- especially on Odus, Antonica, Kunark, and Luclin -- which are beautiful leveling zones that sit permanently empty. Why? Because players figured out that the path of least resistance leads through Paludal Caverns, the Overthere, and Maiden's Eye.


I don't think killstealing, ninjalooting, or training were that big of a problem, personally.Heh heh... well without going into too much detail of my own experiences, they were. Which is why they designed EQ2 to eliminate them. :shinner: