First Lieberman and now this asshat.

[MikeKAY]

Senator blasts Eidos' 25 to Life
New York Senator Charles E. Schumer claims upcoming shooter is an "all-time low" and teaches "Little Johnny" to kill cops.

Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-New York) is embarking on a crusade against Eidos, telling the New York Daily News that the British publisher is readying a game that makes "Grand Theft Auto look like Romper Room." The game is 25 to Life, an action title where players take on the role of a drug dealer named Freeze who gets into gunfights with police officers, uses civilians as human shields, and shoots rival gang members.

Schumer is calling on New York retailers not to stock the game or sell it. "There is nowhere that the value of the police force is felt more strongly than here in New York, and to sell a video game that denigrates their value is simply unacceptable," Schumer said. "You certainly don't need a degree in criminal justice to understand that when you make sport of behavior that is dangerous and destructive you reinforce it. The last thing we need here in New York is to reinforce a destructive culture of violence and disrespect for the law."

A press release from Schumer's camp calls 25 to Life one of the worst in a string of violent games, finding that it "sets gang members against police and sends them on a mission to fight their way through the streets, killing whatever gets in the way."

Not only is Schumer urging retailers not to sell the game, but he is also asking that Sony and Microsoft end its licensing agreements with Eidos. "Little Johnny should be learning how to read, not how to kill cops," Schumer said. "The bottom line is that games that are aimed and marketed at kids shouldn't desensitize them to death and destruction."

25 to Life is currently in development by Utah-based Avalanche Software. The game is scheduled for release this August on the PlayStation 2, Xbox, and PC. For more information, check out GameSpot's previous coverage.
Link. (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/20/news_6127865.html)

What a crock of ****. :(

[WingedAvenger]

Cool, I think I might want to play it now. ;)

[Poison]

Though I do not agree with violence from videogames, yadda yadda, I do think that some game designers should finally learn to take a little responsibility for the games they come up with. Especially one as big as Eidos.
Come on, playing a drug dealer, using civilian human shields, gang fights? Is that really necessary? Can't they come up with something else? Enough teenagers already think Scarface is the best film in the world and would want to become like Al Pacino. Don't see this from the "kids will not kill others because they played an FPS" and "we are being hindered in our freedom" point of view, but from the "videogames and television is the only education most kids today have" one.

[the_starcrosser]

Yeh.... i don't like the "videogames kill children" idea, but i do agree that there's gotta be better things to do for entertainment... hours of entertainment... than being a drug lord and killing both police and civilians. Enemy soldiers is one thing, bounty hunters going after criminals, shooting "space aliens" or monsters... *shrug* well, what do i know. Just other things i'd rather be doing with my time.

[Meltman]

Um, what's the Romper Room?

[Solario]

"videogames and television is the only education most kids today have" one.


25 to Life sounds interesting, and I'll probably buy it. While I agree that videogames and television probably is one of the leading forms of education in the world, I have to say it's not the developers fault, that the parents can't seem to try and educate their children otherwise.

[Randomus]

25 To Life is another game I won't look at twice, along with Manhunt. Game developpers need to get back into the groove of making good games, not just overly violent games.

On the other hand, if parents took a little responsibility for their children, this wouldn't be a problem. Don't buy your kid the game. Take it away if he or she gets it. Don't expect the rest of the world to do your parenting for you.

[MikeKAY]

25 To Life is another game I won't look at twice, along with Manhunt. Game developpers need to get back into the groove of making good games, not just overly violent games.

On the other hand, if parents took a little responsibility for their children, this wouldn't be a problem. Don't buy your kid the game. Take it away if he or she gets it. Don't expect the rest of the world to do your parenting for you.

I won't play it either, I never played Manhunt or even San Andreas. Of course that is mainly because I don't even own a console but still, none of them are really my kind of game.

There are really two points here...

One, video games may be the "only education" kid's have today but that doesn't meen they live in an isolated universe composed of nothing but violent video games. Only a seriously psychologically off teenager, specifically having the inability to differentiate reality from fantasy and more over, seeing the world in a way that doesn't align with reality, or someone too young to tell the difference would realistically be effected by something like this. Neither should be anywhere close to a game like this, and neither should be in a parental vacuum left to his own devices. If someone like that WAS left to his own devices, video game or no video game, he is going to crack sooner or later. To rectify this, parent's need to pull their heads from their collective asses, stop being self-centered, black holes of stress and misery, and ****ING take part in their child’s life!

Two, this asshat senator probably never played a video game in his life, probably knows jack **** about the industry and the art, and probably has kids that play them while he is either oblivious or proving hypocritical (knows but doesn't interfere). Legislating anything that you know nothing about is never a good thing, it leads to laws that make you go "what the ****" in the first five seconds of reading it, and it interferes with the perfectly innocent conduct of reasonable, intelligent people who just want to play their damn games after work. This is censorship legislation built by playing on an emotional subject, it doesn't pull any reasonable weight and it is going to **** with business and individual conduct.

[thebluecanary]

Um, what's the Romper Room?

Please tell me you are kidding. I know I am old, but am I really that old?

Do be a Do-Bee. Don't be, a Don't-Bee.

[Meltman]

Please tell me you are kidding. I know I am old, but am I really that old?

Do be a Do-Bee. Don't be, a Don't-Bee.

....you've lost me.

[Tarberetta]

It's an "M" rated game, meaning 18+

Regardless of the game's content, why in the hell would you lets your kids play this? (Hello? Parential responsibility?)

[Solario]

I agree with everything MikeKAY said... Wow, there's a statement I'd never thought I'd make. :D

And I too do not know what a Romper Room is.

[Malibu Sally]

And I too do not know what a Romper Room is.

Had to do a Google.

Romper Room (http://www.tvparty.com/lostromper.html) :lol:

[Magna Harrier]

Games with titles like these really make one wonder what the heck is going through a parent's mind when they buy these games.. ("Grand Theft Auto? Sounds like a fine, upstanding game!)
I will say that, while I defend their right to make these games, pushing the envelope needlessly with a poor quality game is just causing trouble. I own most or all of the recent GTA games, and they've all been well written, interesting games, that are a great experience. Unfortunatly, on the opposite end of the spectrum, there's State of the Union.... I heard congressfolk complaining about this one a year before it came out... they neeed'nt have, because it was a terrible game. Not terrible as in corrupting, terrible as in poor content and gameplay.

[Graphite]

Lawmakers and Parrents need to get it into their heads that not all video games are designed for kids. Just like "cartoons," some things are intended for the Adult audience. Personally, I'm tried of hearing about that games = violent acts. Simple fact is that with in a large soicety, there are some sick people and they will do truely evil things. I for one feel less violent after playing these type of game, help get the edge off or some times a good stress reliever. Lets get rid of the guns before we get rid of the games.

But you guys are right. Game makers need to stop turning out turning out more and more violent games. I for one would welcome some more creativity in the market place, which is supersaturated by shooters and stradegy. They all seem to be the same game just repackaged with better graphics.

[Jade_Dragon]

Yeah, instead of asking retailers not to sell the game at all, the Senator should be telling them (not asking them, TELLING them) not to sell the game to minors. The game industry created the rating system so people would know what they are buying. If people are going to ignore it, and then blame the game industry for their ignorance, then they are plain and simple idiots.

Of course, the trend of making a lame game overly violent, slapping an "M" rating on it, and expecting increased sales is irresponsible, but it's only been recently that games aimed at adults have even been acceptable. As with any trend, it's new, and so everyone jumps on the bandwagon. With time, the manufacturers will realize that ratings don't sell games, and go back to putting effort into them.

[Bari Jon]

Please tell me you are kidding. I know I am old, but am I really that old?

Do be a Do-Bee. Don't be, a Don't-Bee.

I guess we are that old! My grandparents dog Jolie was a regular act on Romper Room in the seventies... I remember watching the local show all the time.... And I had one of the punching bags... I wonder why Hot For Teacher loves punching the baddies... go tanktroller go!

[MikeKAY]

I agree with everything MikeKAY said... Wow, there's a statement I'd never thought I'd make. :D

And I too do not know what a Romper Room is.

Now that is just plain scary. :yoy:

[Poison]

Again, I have always been on the anti-census and "parents should care more for their kids" side. School and parents/family were and should be the main educators of children, but they aren't anymore.

And come on, be honest. The "parents shouldn't buy it then" doesn't work for me either. Every 13 year old nowadays has access to or even has his own internet. Downloading and copying games is a normal thing. My brother is 14 and has games he shouldn't, legally. And my parents don't know, because he gets them from other kids at his school whose parents are the liberal, non-caring kind.
Yes, parents should take a lot more responsibility than they do. But they can't be controlling their kids 24/7. So I shift the blame a bit and ask the game developers to control themselves a little as well. A compromise, so to speak.

[Jade_Dragon]

Again, I have always been on the anti-census and "parents should care more for their kids" side. School and parents/family were and should be the main educators of children, but they aren't anymore.

And come on, be honest. The "parents shouldn't buy it then" doesn't work for me either. Every 13 year old nowadays has access to or even has his own internet. Downloading and copying games is a normal thing. My brother is 14 and has games he shouldn't, legally. And my parents don't know, because he gets them from other kids at his school whose parents are the liberal, non-caring kind.
Yes, parents should take a lot more responsibility than they do. But they can't be controlling their kids 24/7. So I shift the blame a bit and ask the game developers to control themselves a little as well. A compromise, so to speak.

Well, while I to certain extent agree that's true, that's also a sign that it's a problem with the society (or perhaps, societal standards) and not the game industry. If it were common enough for parents to recognize the ratings system and not allow their kids to have M rated games, then the kids wouldn't be able to get around it by just going to another parent.

And as for downloading it off the internet, well, that is illegal, and the kids who are doing it don't care about laws or standards already. It's our society that fosters the belief that information content is valueless, and you can steal it or get it any way you want to and to heck with the consequences. After all, they're all a bunch of rich men anyway who don't deserve their money, right?

If it's nothing worse than what you can see in an R-rated movie, then it shouldn't be a problem. No one says that R-rated movies should stop being made, because kids can download them off the Internet. No one complains that their kid can go over to a neighbors house, and watch an R-rated movie on DVD. If that happens, they place the blame where it belongs, with the parent who was irresponsible enough to allow his children access to those movies.

The problem is the attitude towards games, that they're "just for kids". If a kid asks to see a particular movie, the parent will usually check it out, or even watch it with the kid to make sure it's okay. If it's a game, though, he doesn't want to be bothered with playing some "foolish kid's game", and just gives it to the kid.

[Apollinaris]

Just one note, Poison. The same can happen with movies, pictures, and books. If you're going to go on a hunt like this with video games you have to do it with every other kind of content, and the only way you can stop the kind of exchange you're citing is to ban the material, then you have the problem that not everyone in the country can agree on what should be banned. (Harry Potter book burnings anyone? :P) Remember some of the silly guidelines from the Comics Code Authority? :lol: So in conclusion Poison, what you're asking for will simply never work unless you intend to turn the entire world into a fascist state where only state approved materials are allowed. ;)

[Jade_Dragon]

Just one note, Poison. The same can happen with movies, pictures, and books. If you're going to go on a hunt like this with video games you have to do it with every other kind of content, and the only way you can stop the kind of exchange you're citing is to ban the material, then you have the problem that not everyone in the country can agree on what should be banned. (Harry Potter book burnings anyone? :P) Remember some of the silly guidelines from the Comics Code Authority? :lol: So in conclusion Poison, what you're asking for will simply never work unless you intend to turn the entire world into a fascist state where only state approved materials are allowed. ;)

I think I wouldn't be so disgruntled about it if there wasn't such a double standard. Apply the same restrictions on availability and distribution to movies, games, and books and I don't think I would have a problem with it.

I wouldn't mind a little bit of government involvement, to help define the ratings, but in all honesty, even the movie industry is for the most part self-policed. No one can be arrested for walking into an R-rated movie. Until society views buying an M-rated game for a kid the same as a ticket taker letting said kid into an R-rated movie alone, nothing can be done.

I suppose we could still have things like the V-chip in game consoles. Allow parents to lock out any games that are M rated, the same as you can do with DVD players.

[Poison]

So in conclusion Poison, what you're asking for will simply never work unless you intend to turn the entire world into a fascist state where only state approved materials are allowed. ;) Maybe I expressed it confusingly, but you got me wrong.
I live in Germany, where movies still get censored. Scenes get cut out of movies if they're too brutal. Games like Resident Evil 4 get butchered, levels and minigames removed (I sold mine again as soon as I noticed and got the uncensored Swiss version), or they get completely prohibited (like Doom or Manhunt). I hate it and have always hated it. I grew up watching stuff like Nightmare on Elmstreet with 10 years, I saw Jaws with 6, Evil Dead and Dead Alive with 15, etc. And that was really hard to do back then, you needed to get the copy of a copy of someone's neighbor's uncle who lives in America.

What I tried to explain is that you need to see the whole image. Games are not only for kids. The game ratings are fine as they are, only that there are ways to get around them too easily. I was always on the game developers' side when it came to the old quarrel, blaming it all on parents and schools. But that is because the games actually weren't harmful, IMO. But the trend with games, just like TV or movies, has been to go more and more to the edge, crossing the line of good taste, pushing it further. And the game ratings do not help, since we can see that they do not keep the games (or movies or whatever) from the kids. Today's parents were educated during the 60s, 70s and 80s, a lot of liberalism and anti-authoritarian stuff going on back then. So there will be parents who let their kids do (almost) everything. And, as I said, there's online sharing and copying, known methods of distribution. If they're good or not is another question, I just stated they're there and they're known. So the game developers can't just argue "it wasn't meant for kids and we didn't know".

A normal child with a normal, working family (as in "as it should be", not as in "as they really are") can be confronted with sex, porn, cussing, racism and violence and will come out great, because it won't affect the kid too much. But now go and ask yourself how many families out there you consider normal and working. Yes, society has a big problem, not only in the US. The old "husband works, mom stays at home" model is working less and less, meaning that kids spend time alone at home/school/street/whatever. They get to play these games (which per sé might not be bad) and have questions, as all kids and youth have. But nobody can or will answer those questions except TV, games or their friends, who usually have no idea at that age.

So yes, society needs to change to the better and care more about children. But that does include the game developers and their ethics. And just censoring it out, closing their eyes before the problem and blaming the fault around won't help.

[Apollinaris]

I don't quite see how I got you wrong. I believe the central point of your post seems to state, "Ratings are fine, however children get access to games they should not have too easily." Is that correct? Is not asking developers to take responsibility for creating edgier and edgier material with higher ratings not the same as saying you want them to self-censor? If children's parents are letting them have games or movies they should not have what do you expect developers and movie makers to do other than self-censor or lawmakers ban such offensive works?

If ratings and not selling to minors is not enough then censorship and banning are the only other options until we invent smart videos that refuse to play for anyone their rated age. And you said yourself, censorship and prohibition of material didn't stop you from simply going across the border and getting an uncensored version. I mean, unless you wanted to police the prohibition of such material the way we do drugs in America, I don't see what the ban would do other than making such banned material cost a little more to acquire.

Also if a child's parent is knowingly allowing them to have some material they wouldn't normally be allowed to have, then I really don't think it's your business to complain about it. Obviously these parents have a different set of morals than you hold and they do not find the material a problem. You wouldn't have a problem with a parent giving a kid the chosen holy text of their religion and telling them it's fact, so you can't object to said parent deciding any other material is ok for their child either. Of course, this usually isn't the case.

One more thing. This website requires someone to input a birthdate that shows they are over 13, or to have a parent approve a form. Tell me, what's to stop little kids from just putting in a fake birthday? Nothing, that's what. Do you think this /site/ should be taken down because children under the age of 13 might access it even though we're supposed to? Now remember, don't say there's nothing offensive about this site, because trust me, there is at least one person in all the 5 billion people on planet earth who would look at this site and declare it horribly offensive. (Very easy to do if the person is anti-US and sees the images of the Patriotic themed super heroes.)

Frankly, I'm just a little confused on the whole statement, you say things like "games are not only for kids", but then complain that developers need to take responsiblity for their works and outline situations that allow children to acquire the material which is clearly beyond the developers control. The only way to change that is to make "Games (and movies, books, music, etc.) only for kids." Vchips would help but they could be defeated. And you cite downloading illegal copies as a source, so surely they'll be able to find a site about disabling the chips. And if they're doing all that, ordering from another country can't be too difficult given the funds.. or their parents might just give it too them and circumvent the entire clandestine operation. So to make a plan that denies children access to these works you have to turn the entire world into a fascist state where all these materials are banned. Which is pretty much impossible to do.

Maybe you don't think state enforced banning or censorship of material would be wrong, but being American I believe that freedom of speech is one of the most sacred rights that all human beings are entitled to. And it's a right that the founders of our country fought and died for and many of our ancestors moved their entire lives to an unknown land to work long hours in dangerous factories for. Free speech is never under debate when you don't like it. It's when you utterly loathe and disagree with it that you need to protect it the most. Everyone including political leaders, hate groups, media, muslims, christians, atheists, and late night talk show hosts who do the string dance gets to say their piece.

And yes, freedom of speech means that if put out a message that children should not be viewing, then there's a chance they may recieve it. I can try to rate it and keep it out of their hands, but if the kids are determined enough or their parents are allowing them to read it, there's nothing I can do about it.

PS. Sorry to hear the censorship is that bad in Germany. Since I view censorship like that inherently wrong I don't think I'd be able to stand living there. (And I did visit once.)

[Larke]

Ok, I think Poison has a valid point and I think a lot of you aren't understanding the crappy parenting we have today, you can go ahead and say it all has to go to the parents and then need to protect and raise their kids parent, but the freaking morons that are breeding these days shouldn't be having kids but ARE. So no matter how good of a parent you aren't you can't always know you're sending your kid over to a friends house who has a parent with their head stuck up their ass.

Lets put the kids factor aside for a second... and deal with the fact that we have not so bright adults as well. Does anyone remember the story (can't fully remember details) about the hacker who was over 18 and couldn't be tried and convicted because he was to "socially inept". He actually was incapable of knowning what was right and wrong.

I absolutely hate these games and can't stand that grand theft auto is such a freaking popular game. Can't some of you in your right mind decide that even in a game, having sex with a prositute, killing her, getting your money back and then go shooting a cop to grab his car to get away is wrong, EVEN in a video game. Why is that so entertaining? Its wrong in my opinion for games to be so realistic like this.

and how about another scenario. Dad bought the game, has a 13 yr old kid, Dad's not home, kid gets on computer to play. That's fully parents fault, but still it was alrighty for daddy to buy the game to have fun.

[Larke]

Also Apollinaris... there's a big difference in violence in movies, you have to watch that and you can block your eyes and such, and you have NO say in how the movie goes, in games, like this one coming out and grand theft auto, YOU make the decisions, there's a big difference in how you react to games than you do to movies and even books, when you make the decisions you have the power.

[Tarberetta]

It *still* comes down to the parents. No matter how you cut it.

If dad bought a game for himself and his kid finds it and plays it, it's dad's fault. If a kid goes to a friend's house and has access to stuff you don't approve of, you restrict access to going to see that friend. EVERYTHING comes down to the parents. PERIOD. Asking developers to censor their games because mom and dad can't get their head out of their butts is placing the blame in the wrong place.

I make this argument because this is what my mother used to do to me. I may not have liked it, but now that I'm older I realized what a parental role-model she was.

As for the game's content, if you don't like it, don't buy it. I personally don't care for any of the GTA games and that, but that's just me. Who am I to tell some other ADULT what he or she can spend their money on.

[Solario]

Can't some of you in your right mind decide that even in a game, having sex with a prositute, killing her, getting your money back and then go shooting a cop to grab his car to get away is wrong, EVEN in a video game. Why is that so entertaining? Its wrong in my opinion for games to be so realistic like this.

I disagree, this is like saying it's wrong of you to watch a movie, where someone gets tortured, killed and other horrific acts. There's a very big difference between reality and fantasy, if someone has a problem with differenciating between the two, you can't blame the developers, but the general environment around that child, which is usually dominated by the parents.

[Jade_Dragon]

Also Apollinaris... there's a big difference in violence in movies, you have to watch that and you can block your eyes and such, and you have NO say in how the movie goes, in games, like this one coming out and grand theft auto, YOU make the decisions, there's a big difference in how you react to games than you do to movies and even books, when you make the decisions you have the power.

That is a very good point. There is a level of interaction in games that does have to be considered (or even should be considered if it isn't, currently) when rating it.

However, it is just as possible to identify with movie characters as it is with video game characters. There are movies which cross the line when it comes to violence and sex, and there are people who seek out those movies. Those people usually have a problem to start with. You can block your eyes when you are watching a movie, and you can choose not to blindly slaughter people in GTA. You determine what your moral compass is as you go through the game.

I do agree that the level of interaction can be more dangerous to young children, but that's why you have a rating system to keep those games out of the hands of those children.

[WingedAvenger]

I disagree, this is like saying it's wrong of you to watch a movie, where someone gets tortured, killed and other horrific acts. There's a very big difference between reality and fantasy, if someone has a problem with differenciating between the two, you can't blame the developers, but the general environment around that child, which is usually dominated by the parents.
Agreed. Books are another good example of source material that could potentially contain descriptions of anti-social behavior (Mario Puzo's "The Godfather" anyone?), but I'd never suggest book publishers should censor violent novels.

You know what else? I was flipping through the channels last night and came upon the end of Nancy Grace's show on CNN, and she was discussing "25 to Life". On screen they showed gameplay clips of criminals shooting wildly, while an infobox in the corner cycled through headshots of real life police officers that have been killed in the line of duty. She had a few guests on the show as well to defend the game, but I'm not really sure why because anytime they started talking she would immediately interrupt and talk over them to further trash the game. Bias much? I felt like I was watching FoxNews.

[Jade_Dragon]

Agreed. Books are another good example of source material that could potentially contain descriptions of anti-social behavior (Mario Puzo's "The Godfather" anyone?), but I'd never suggest book publishers should censor violent novels.

Of course, most kids don't read, because reading is "teh l4mz0rz". :D

[...] On screen they showed gameplay clips of criminals shooting wildly, while an infobox in the corner cycled through headshots of real life police officers that have been killed in the line of duty. [..]

And when you get down to it, THAT is the argument. It's got nothing to do with children. It's got nothing to do with morals. It's got nothing to do with violence in television. It's "you're bad, because you're encouraging people to kill policemen."

This would be exactly the same if it was a book. It would be the same if it was a movie. It HAS BEEN the same with music. I can understand that kind of thinking, nobody wants to see police officers killed. But the real story is anything but that simple.

[Joe Schmoe]

Now that is just plain scary. :yoy:

He's not the only one :lol:

[Akamaz]

quick question... was the infobox that showed the heads of killed cops part of the game or part of the t.v. show?

[WingedAvenger]

quick question... was the infobox that showed the heads of killed cops part of the game or part of the t.v. show?It was a graphic created by the Nancy Grace show which ran the entire segment (that I saw), not part of the game.

[Jade_Dragon]

It was a graphic created by the Nancy Grace show which ran the entire segment (that I saw), not part of the game.

If it had been, that WOULD have been in bad taste...

[Apollinaris]

Here's an interesing thought. City of Heroes is a role-playing game. The very first role-playing game was Dungeons and Dragons. Now, you want to talk about bad, do a google search on this and you'll find lots of sites saying this game is satanic, and the act of showing magic is indoctrinating kids into the occult, and that zombies and demons as monsters are against their religion.

Remember way back when some people went nutty and freaking killed each over after playing that game. Is the game banned? No. Because TSR shouldn't be held responsible for some people who go off the deep end and use their product for something like that. And you can do things a hell of a lot worse in a D&D game then they'll ever let you do in a video game. (And I've read books with content a whole lot worse than this video game, too.)

Now if you want to ban things because kids might get ahold of this, you'd also have to ban D&D. And if you had banned D&D, then this game wouldn't have been created. Ever. And then we wouldn't be having a discussion on these boards talking about it.

To be honest, the biggest problem with censorship is that no matter how normal you think something you have is, there's always a group of people who find it very offensive. It's really easy to say, "Yeah, you should ban that!" when it's not something you care about. But once they start banning one thing, believe me, next thing you know they /will/ be coming after the things you enjoy. Trust me, right now there's an organized group, that if they found out City of Heroes exsisted, they'd be protesting about it right now.. assuming they're not doing it already.

[Poison]

Solario mentioned real life/fantasy. But in this specific game, it's not so much fantasy. Drug dealer, shooting cops, gang fights? As far as I know, that's something almost normal in your country. Kids and youngsters have it hard enough not to fall into that kind of society. And now there are games being made that "educate" them on how cool it is.
But maybe drug dealers and such are so normal to you all already, that you don't think it's over the edge. For me, living in "old Europe", it is still a nightmarish vision.

So imagine that the next cool game is a remake of the old 386 game "Jew Manager". That old pixel game, that came out even before Wolfenstein3D, was a Dungeon Keeper-like simulator, where you were the leader of a concentration camp. You had to manage the resources, build gas chambers and incinerators, etc. It was a cheap piece of nazi propaganda, a game with bad graphics (even for ega/vga times) and was forbidden everywhere of course.
But now EA decides that this is exactly what the world needs right now. You get amazing, life-like graphics with physical engine (see guts and blood fly around in real time!). Incredible audio (those screams sound real!). With real WW2 footage! It's non-linear gameplay: you can either be a good nazi and spare as many Jews as possible, working against the Führer (like reenacting Schindler's List) or you can be a tyrant and be responsible for millions of deaths in little time. Choose between electrical fences and barb wire, 35 different execution methods and 5 extra cruel bonus ones. Become the Führer's favourite KZ leader!
Let's assume this game gets produced, does not get forbidden or censored and becomes the runner-up for game of the year. Is everything still cool?

Or an American fear factor:
Some Far East country produces a GTA-like game where you play an Al Quaida member who has to run havoc on Manhattan. You have complete freedom, as long as the cops don't catch you. Lay bombs, shoot people, poison the water, cause fear and destruction and become the most feared terrrorist!

The US army spent a lot of tax money to produce their game, America's Army, and to them it was a legal propaganda mehtod. Of course the bad guys were Iraquis, Al Quaida, etc. When Iraquis produced a FPS of their own where you play one of them and the Americans are the bad guys, the screaming and blaming from the US was big. I mean to say, that GTA-like game is not so unrealistic.

[Apollinaris]

But now EA decides that this is exactly what the world needs right now. You get amazing, life-like graphics with physical engine (see guts and blood fly around in real time!). Incredible audio (those screams sound real!). With real WW2 footage! It's non-linear gameplay: you can either be a good nazi and spare as many Jews as possible, working against the Führer (like reenacting Schindler's List) or you can be a tyrant and be responsible for millions of deaths in little time. Choose between electrical fences and barb wire, 35 different execution methods and 5 extra cruel bonus ones. Become the Führer's favourite KZ leader!
Let's assume this game gets produced, does not get forbidden or censored and becomes the runner-up for game of the year. Is everything still cool?


Yep, everything's still cool. You allow Neo Nazi's to protest in Jewish neighboorhoods, why have a problem with a video game or film? If you were to ban that game you'd have to ban other things, and then were would the line end? Would you ban Fareinheit 911 (No, I didn't watch it.), or The Passion of the Christ? Both films are designed to impress their message upon the viewer as truth. The only major difference between all three is that they've all got different messages. The only thing that really makes the concentration camp one different is you don't agree with it's message. Realize that some people would view the messages in Fareinheit 911 and The Passion of the Christ in a similar light as you do your described game.

Same thing goes for the two other things. Don't get me wrong, I'll be pissed, and I'll scream out in outrage over it, and I'll ask people not to distribute the game where they're killing American soldiers. But hunt down copies as contraband? No no no. I may hate Al Jezzera and their message, but that doesn't mean I'm about to advocate bombing their stations or anything.

And please, stop trying to sell the US short. It's not nearly as bad as it looks on TV, but bad news sells here, plain and simple. Actually it's been noted that as crime goes down here the reports of crime go up. :lol: Selling of the US as the world that exsists in a GTA game would be like selling off Germany as being exactly like the game you described. ;)

[Solario]

So imagine that the next cool game is a remake of the old 386 game "Jew Manager". That old pixel game, that came out even before Wolfenstein3D, was a Dungeon Keeper-like simulator, where you were the leader of a concentration camp. You had to manage the resources, build gas chambers and incinerators, etc. It was a cheap piece of nazi propaganda, a game with bad graphics (even for ega/vga times) and was forbidden everywhere of course.

...

Or an American fear factor:
Some Far East country produces a GTA-like game where you play an Al Quaida member who has to run havoc on Manhattan. You have complete freedom, as long as the cops don't catch you. Lay bombs, shoot people, poison the water, cause fear and destruction and become the most feared terrrorist!

The difference here is that these games would be based on a number of ideals, that in our society we percieve as hateful, evil and just generally bad. Where as GTA for example, while still based on ideals that we could consider wrong is not outright hateful. Plus in games like GTA the basic story is that everyone you know betrays you, tries to kill and/or frame you. Personally that doesn't sound like more encouragement than various Gangsta rap songs.

I'm with Apollinaris on this, you allow neonazis etc. to protest in jewish neightbourhoods, so why should games be such a target of for example lawsuits? Because they have money and people are greedy.

I remember one, where our local religious and racist nutbag, Moses Hansen, decided he wanted to walk through Nørrebro (which is the part of the city, that's filled with the most arabs) about how much he hated "perker" (a derogatory danish term for arabs). He was bombarded with vegetables, but not one brick and the police was there to "protect" him, even if I'm pretty sure they hated his guts. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's illegal.

I have to admit though, as sick as it sounds, I'm mild morbidly curious about these games.


EDIT: I just read some more about 25 to Life and it seems you can also play as the cops. Funny how that was pretty much not mentioned anywhere on the news recently.

Tycho's (of Penny Arcade) opinion:

"Maybe it's just because we've done comics on the topic for nearly seven years, but it's getting harder and harder to understand why violence in electronic games warrants such brazen showmanship. Presumably it's all about the kids, but they always trot out a line of dirty-faced kids when they want to get their own **** through. It's like bringing your son to a restaurant, and then saying it was his birthday so you could get the free Mile High Mud Pie. Maybe he gets a bite or something, but mostly you'd really like to eat five pounds of frozen cake and chocolate ice cream, and there's not really any nobility associated with that."

[Bari Jon]

Same thing goes for the two other things. Don't get me wrong, I'll be pissed, and I'll scream out in outrage over it, and I'll ask people not to distribute the game where they're killing American soldiers. But hunt down copies as contraband? No no no. I may hate Al Jezzera and their message, but that doesn't mean I'm about to advocate bombing their stations or anything.

Unless I'm missing something, I reread the article that started this thread, and the senator is doing exactly that... actually he's not screaming, he is asking the stores to not stock the games... he is not introducing new legislation or even calling for anyone to do that. I guess what I don't get is that it's okay to want stores not to stock a game about killing American soldiers, but stores stocking a game about killing cops IS okay?

And what is the matter with self-censorship? Doesn't everyone do that? If we all completely spoke our minds without thinking about what it is we said, without some sort of filter, we'd probably all be at each other's throats... oh wait, sometimes we are.

[Apollinaris]

Unless I'm missing something, I reread the article that started this thread, and the senator is doing exactly that... actually he's not screaming, he is asking the stores to not stock the games... he is not introducing new legislation or even calling for anyone to do that. I guess what I don't get is that it's okay to want stores not to stock a game about killing American soldiers, but stores stocking a game about killing cops IS okay?

And what is the matter with self-censorship? Doesn't everyone do that? If we all completely spoke our minds without thinking about what it is we said, without some sort of filter, we'd probably all be at each other's throats... oh wait, sometimes we are.

Actually if you look at my posts I've never commented on what the original poster said, or the actions of the senator. I've only started posting in reaction to Poison stating that ratings do not work in video games because children can get the game from friends without their parents knowing, etc.

Frankly though I disagree with the senator the fact is he is so far going about it the right way. The only bad part is that when a senator does this there's always an implied threat that non-compliance will result in in a future law making it mandatory, or some other such difficulty their position of power could cause. (Making business licenses more difficult to accquire, a focused tax on the product, etc.)

And there's nothing wrong with moderating yourself, but you shouldn't be forced to. There's a difference between, "I don't want to come out and go this far and put this message out." and, "I'd better censor myself because otherwise the gov't/lawyers will come after me."

[Poison]

And there's nothing wrong with moderating yourself, but you shouldn't be forced to. There's a difference between, "I don't want to come out and go this far and put this message out." and, "I'd better censor myself because otherwise the gov't/lawyers will come after me."
But that's what I was talking about all the time. That developers should be a little more conscient about the message they deliver with their games, knowing how much influence the games can have.

[Apollinaris]

But there's no reason they should have to and they shouldn't be censored either. If they want to moderate themselves, they will, if they don't, they won't. It comes down to that. You can not buy it, you can boycott it, you can ask others to boycott it, but that's really it. Once you start forcing compliance with your view of what's acceptable, you've gone too far.

And that still leaves the fact that children could still get the game from someone else who's views do not match your own.

[Ceres]

Enough teenagers already think Scarface is the best film in the world and would want to become like Al Pacino.

For the record, I'm sixteen and I haven't even seen Scarface. But if it's at all like the Godfather, I'll probably think it's overrated.

[Poison]

It is. ;)

[Tarberetta]

But that's what I was talking about all the time. That developers should be a little more conscient about the message they deliver with their games, knowing how much influence the games can have.

There should never be a greater influence to a child than a parent. If it isn't, why should developers be responsible?

If said person influenced by a game is an adult, they they likely have other issues besides what they believe in a game.

[Akamaz]

I agree with tarby. too many people are letting t.v. computers and video games raise their children, instead of doing it themselves. (why else would t.v. be nicknamed the babysitting box.)

[suburbanhell]

Why is it the DEMOCRATS rally against the Video Games? :grumble:

[Symbiote]

Okay, I guess I'm the poster child for playing video games with ratings above my age.

Since I've been playing video games since I was a tiny, let's go through all of these things that influence me oh so much!

Mortal Kombat 1 - 2 - 3 - Trilogy - Deadly Alliance - Deception

Back in 1993, or whenever MK1 was released, I got this great game. That would make me 5 years old, playing a game with gore and those things called "Fatality". Yes, I do have all those MK games, so I'm a big fan of the series, and still not old enough for its "M" rating.

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas

I just recently picked up this masterpiece, as a christmas gift :) . My parents do know about this games' content, I mean who doesn't know with all those segments of the news talking bad about this game. Way to advertise it!

About the deal with hookers in the game, I don't really care for this aspect because it's mostly pointless to beating the story, but it's just a game and I guess some people like seeing the car move with some sounds?

Anyway, I do the terrible things that almost everyone does playing these games, such as murderous rampages.

... I have some other "M" rated video games, but I think these are the main interests. So how about my other influences?


I have some "gangsta" rap in my playlist, but somehow I'm not influenced by it.
I like some violent movies, such as The Godfather, Scarface, Terminator 3, etc. Check out my Scarface picture in "RL picture thread" lol.
Don't really watch TV too much since video games are 100 times better, but I like to watch the violence in boxing.


"so, with all that, this kid has to be violent and psycho!11~"


Never been in a fight
I'm nice to everyone, golden rule style.
Good amount of friends from school.
I read books, currently reading "State of Fear" by Michael Crichton.
I get good grades in high school, but I have to admit I got terrible grades back in middle school... damn that diablo 2 influence.
I don't necessarily go for violent or "M" rated video games, I just pick up what's good and stuff I like. My ideal video game would be a MMORPG in space with Freelancer-style combat and tons of customization (SWG doesn't count).

[MikeKAY]

Why is it the DEMOCRATS rally against the Video Games? :grumble:

I could tell you... It would be short and to the point but you probably wouldn't agree. :p

[Apollinaris]

My ideal video game would be a MMORPG in space with Freelancer-style combat and tons of customization (SWG doesn't count).
[/list]

You might be a bit to young to remember this, but there used to be more free-style space games like this around. I think Elite was the very first one but another great gem was Wing Commander: Privateer. Earth: Above and Beyond tried to be close but it went for RPG style combat. If only we could have had real flight stick control that game would probably still be around.

You might want to try Allegience (http://www.freeallegiance.org), it's not quite the same, but the game involves two massive teams fighting over several star systems and the game has an RTS style tech tree and resource gathering.

Though on the original note, you're probably not warped, and you're almost old enough for the rating anyway. But trust me there's nothing more annoying than being 23 and having two kids behind you at the line at babbages going "off the hook" about getting the newest GTA game. Seriously, extremly annoying there.