PDA

View Full Version : Swords guide to Invuln


Sword
04-12-2005, 02:11 PM
EDIT: This is an old guide I wrote. The numbers and some of the strategies discussed in this thread are probably no longer accurate.


Hiya, wrote this guide a little while after the I3 changes went in. Thought I might as well post it here as well, to help fellow tankers. Or to just be flamed for my complete misunderstadning of the set :P

Remember, this is not a be-all and end-all guide to Invulnerability. This is my personal observations about the set and what I'd advise you to do if you're building one.

Anyway, here it is:

Ok, I'll start with a small definition of the CoH mechanics concerning "damage mitigation". There are two stats that protect you from being killed. These two are not to be mixed up, since they perform very differently.

Resistance : Your Resistance lowers the amount of damage you take. If you have 20% resistance, you take 80% of the damage you should have taken from an attack. Your resistance is split up into different damage forms. These are: Smashing/Lethal, Fire, Ice, Toxic, Energy, Negative Energy and Psionic. You have to have resistance to the damage type you ar being attack with for it to help you. If a guy is pointing a flamethrower at you, haveing 90% Resistance to Smashing/Lethal won't help you one bit.

There is a hard "cap" to the resistance stat. You can not get above this number, no matter how much resistance your powers are supposed to give you. The cap for tankers is 90%, the cap for everyone else is 75%

Defense : Defense is the chance of being hit at all. If you have 20% Defense, it means the guy attacking you have a 20% smaller chance to hit you. If he actually hits you, this power will make no difference.

There is no hard cap to defense, but all enemies ALLWAYS have a 5% chance to hit you, no matter how much defense you have. So even if you are level50 and have 300% defense, a lvl1 Hellion still has a 5% chance to hit you.



Ok, on to the powers:

Notice that no power in the set protects against PSIONIC damage. That includes powers that give Defense. As a Invuln character you are completely vulnerable to this damage type. There are Power Pool powers that gives defense boosts. Some take these to have soem added defense against Psionics. I say: don't bother. Most give too small a boost. Weave gives decent defense, but doesn't protect agaisnt Cones and AoE attacks. Most Psionic attacks are Cone and AoE.

Resist Physical Damage : (RPD) This is a good power. What's so good about it, is that it is allways on, and doesn't cost you anything. To make up for this, it doesn't give you all that much.
Resist to Smashing/Lethal: 12.5%
With 6SOs: 27.5

Temporary Invulnerability : (TI) This is a great power for the early game. I advise people to take this as their first power. It costs a bit of endurance to have running, but to make up for that it gives a really high amount of Resist to Smashing/Lethal.
Notice that it's ONLY smashing/lethal though. Running this power while fighting an enemy that uses another form of attack will only cost you endurance without helping you. This power can be run at the same time as the power Unyielding.
Slotting it gives lot of resistance, which very quickly leads to complete overkill. 1-2 DamRes Enhanchers is enough.
Resist to Smashing/Lethal: 32.5%
With 6SOs: 71.5% (Da-ym! That's a LOT of resist!)

Dull Pain : (DP) This can be a very good power to have. This is a click power, which means that when you click it, it does its thing right away and then start recharging. What it does, is two-fold. First, it increases your max HP, so you'll see your greeen HP bar go down first. You're not actually loosing life, it only becomes smaller becuase you make room for more HP. Then it heals you up a nice bit. It's a good "Oh ****!" power to use when you suddenly realize you're taking too much damage. If you set enough rechargers in it, you can make it "perma". Which means that it becomes ready to activate again before its effect has worn out. So you can have it constantly going, thereby having your max HP constantly increased above what you should have at that level.
It takes 6 Rechrgers to make it "perma". If you have Perma-Hasten, it only takes 4.

Resist Elements : (REL) This power is pretty much just like RPD. It's allways on and costs nothing. It gives more resistance then RPD, because Ice and Fire is used less by the enemies than Smashing/Lethal. Good power to have, since it allways protects you, no matter what.
Resist to Fire/Ice: 20%
With 6Sos: 44%

Unyielding : (UY) Take this power. Seriously, no matter what other powers you decide to take or not, this is the one you DO take. This power gives you everything. First of all, it gives you very good protection against status effects (disorient, sleep, hold, immobilize and so on) which is crucial to have in the later game. In addition to this, this is the only power that boosts ALL your resistances. So, one enhanchment in this power is worth more than putting one enhachment in each of RPD, REL and REN. It is also the only power you have that protects you from Toxic damage.
The only downside to the powers, is that it costs endurance to have it running (but it is so worth it) and that it gives you -5% to Defense. So you will be hit easier, but will be able to take much more damage.

Resistance to Smashing/Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative Energy, Toxic: 20
With 6S0s: 44%

Resist Energies : (REN) Exacly same as Resist Elements. Allways on, costs nothing. Gives resistance to Energy and Negative Energy damage.
Resist Energy / Negative Energy: 20%
With 6SOs: 44%

Invincibility : (Invinc) This is the other cornerstone of this powerset. It is a bit complicated to understand, but can give you a huge benefit.
The power has a taunt radius. All enemies in melee range will be aggroed by this power and start attacking you. This is great for keeping enemies concentrated on you and not on your weaker team-members.
It gives you a boost to Defense (note: not Resist). The boost in itself is very small, but it gives an additional boost for each enemy in melee range of you. So, if you have a lot of guys pounding on you, they have a lot smaller chance of hitting. The defense boost is slightly lower versus ranged attacks.
It also gives a boost to your accuracy in the same way. So if you have a lot of enemies near you, you will not even need +ACC enhachments in your attack powers.
Notice that since this power gives you Defense instead of Resist, it makes you much more powerfull. The other powers make you hard to hurt. With this power as well, you are also hard to hit.
Have yet to see confirmed number on how much Defense you get.

Tough Hide : (TH) This power is a Defense-version of your auto-resist powers. It gives you a small boost to Defense. Might be nice to take to off-set the -5%Def from UY, it can also come in handy to protect against ranged attacks.
Defense Bonus: 7.5%.

Unstoppable : (US) This is your big "OH SH!T!!" button. When the brown stuff impacts with the swirly thing, this is what you push. It gives you arund 60-70% to all your resists, except Psionics, for three minutes and gives you higher Endurance recovery. It allso gives you extremely hig protection against Status Effects. So with this on, you have to be facing something truly terrible to be killed. The downside is, of cource, that after the three minutes are up you drop to 10% health and 0 Endurance. Notice that since you drop to 0 End, all your toggles will drop as well. So you'll be completely naked. You use this power to postpone your death by three minutes and see if you can either get lucky or get away.


Ok, so for some build tips at the end.

This is my rules of thumb for building a great Invuln tank. This gives you great damage, little endurance problems and capped resists.

RPD: 1Res
TI: 1Res
REL: 6Res
UY: 6Res
REN: 6Res

This gives you GREAT resistance to all damage forms. There are a few more solutions you can use for smashing/lethal damage resistance that have different pros and cons. All of these assume you have 6-slotted Unyielding.

RPD1 TI1: Just Unyilding+Invince will be enough for most fights. When things get hairy, you turn on TI. Saves endurance and costs no slots.

RPD6 TI1: Same as above, but you'll allmost never need to use TI. This costs 5 additional slots.

TI2: Forces you to use TI a lot more. So you use more endurance. but you get an additional power pick.

Invinciblity: 2-3 ToHitBuff

With Invince running, you will allmost never miss. Even in 1-on-1 fights.

Attacks: Slot all with 1 EndRedux 5Dmg

This eliminates the tanker endurance problem. And gives you a lot of damage. Invince insures that the attacks will hit.

Stamina: 6EndRec

This is obligatory. Sorry, but it is. Get Stamina by lvl22 at the latest.

Hasten: 6Recharge

Will make your big attacks recharge faster and thereby increase your damage ouput. Allso makes you not have to take as many attacks to allways have one ready.

Well, hope that helps any members with Invulnerability build. If you have any additional questions, feel free to ask here.

Sword
04-12-2005, 02:12 PM
Ok, a little bit on playing a tank in a team.

Your main task in a team is to protect your team. If somone dies you should take it personally. The other ATs are known as "squishies" or "pets". Protect your pets :P

First of all: anyone who claims you should just stand there and be beat on does not know what he's talking about. You are NOT a meatshield, unless that is what you want to be (few do).

Your job in the team is to keep all the enemies concnetrated on you. You have a few different tools for this job:

Invinciblity: This power has a taunt aura. It continually pulses taunt at all enemies close to you. It's not very strong, but it's still a big help, since you don't have to actively do anything for this to work its magic.

Taunt: All tanker secondary power sets has this power. It is a ranged AoE auto-hit attack that creates massive aggro in all it hits. This is a great tool for pulling back enemies that are running away from you and towards the squishies. It is allso your earlies aggro-amament tool. This is the only power you have at low levels to actually fulfill your role in a team. Without it you rally are just a low damage/more HP scrapper.

Punch-voke: All the attack powers in the tanker sets have this effect. What it does is make all the enemies go "Wow! Look what he did to my friend! We have to take him down!" Basically, when you hit a mob, you create a AoE aggro effect. The AoE and the magnitude of the aggro is increased the more damage the attack does. So, by simply beatin stuff up, you are managing aggro. PBAoE attacks ar particularly good for this. Since it hits a LOT of guys and therefor creates a lot of aggro. In most fights, once you have the enemies neatly packed around you, you don't really need anything more than to run Invincibility and keep hitting them.

Remianen
04-12-2005, 08:02 PM
Okay, at the moment, I have invuln tanks I regularly play (Platinum Dawn - invuln/SS and Duskfall - Invuln/stone). My main questions revolve around Platinum Dawn and Duskfall.

With Dawn, I got RPD at level 1 and still haven't gotten TI yet (she's 6. My build with her so far looks like this:

1-RPD/Jab
2-Dull Pain
3-2 slots in Dull Pain
4- Punch
5-1 slot in Jab and Punch
6-Combat Jumping

Now, when can I get TI? Can't get it at 8 since that's Unyielding. 14 is Super Jump. 16/18/20 is Swift/Health/Stamina. I had wanted to get Hasten at 10 but that's flexible.

Also, can you recommend travel powers for a tanker? Super Jump is a given but I'm kinda torn between Super Speed (which is what Flameshrike got first, due to Hasten) and Teleport (which I've never had, but was planning to get on one of my defenders). Trying to manage my pool-dipping.

Duskfall is easier since she's only level 3. I figure if she gets TI at 4 (instead of Dull Pain), all will be well.


Thanks!

Freeze Warning
04-12-2005, 09:46 PM
When I made Maiden Taiwan, I skipped Resist physical damage. Instead I went with three resistance enhancements in Temp Invulnerability and six in Unyielding. When I was able to switch them to single origin enhancements, it gave me a 96% resistance to smash/lethal damage, 6% to spare. It's a risk (though rarely with stamina), but Maiden is only tough becuase she uses energy to protect herself.

Here’s a couple of resources that I find very useful (though Sword already has the numbers laid out). Havok's enhancement calculator (http://members.cox.net/cityofheroes/EnhancementCalc.htm) and this guide to tanker defenses and resistances at COH vault (http://cohvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Guides.Detail&id=22) .

Freeze

coldcut
04-12-2005, 10:05 PM
Couple additions:

I've seen guides that recommend perma-Dull Pain, so that you always have a higher number of hit points. I strongly recommend not doing this. Dull Pain heals you, not just for the additional hit points you gain, but a certain percentage beyond that which is very noticable through SOs. So if you've got it on perma, you're essentially wasting those extra hit points.

I like having RPD six-slotted and just running Unyielding and Invincibility. This reduces my endurance drain, which I find is still rough with 6 slotted Stamina. The other thing that happens is that if you get debuffed, it's nice to be able to "Rebuff" yourself at will.

Remianen
04-12-2005, 11:41 PM
Couple additions:

I've seen guides that recommend perma-Dull Pain, so that you always have a higher number of hit points. I strongly recommend not doing this. Dull Pain heals you, not just for the additional hit points you gain, but a certain percentage beyond that which is very noticable through SOs. So if you've got it on perma, you're essentially wasting those extra hit points.

I like having RPD six-slotted and just running Unyielding and Invincibility. This reduces my endurance drain, which I find is still rough with 6 slotted Stamina. The other thing that happens is that if you get debuffed, it's nice to be able to "Rebuff" yourself at will.

That was what my thinking was. I didn't like the idea of perma-dull pain and I was hoping to be able to slot up my passives and let the toggles take me to/over the cap. Plus, I've been slept before and when most of your 'power' is in your toggles, that often leads to hospital visits (not that that's foreign to me :D ).

I was just wondering if it would make sense to get TI ASAP and push some other things back. I just like the idea of having strong "always on" buffs more than "END willing" ones. But not if it's gonna turn me into 1 step above 'squishy'.

ThunderMace
04-13-2005, 12:49 AM
Good Guide Sword, even if I do take a slightly different route to get there than you.

coldcut
04-13-2005, 12:58 AM
That was what my thinking was. I didn't like the idea of perma-dull pain and I was hoping to be able to slot up my passives and let the toggles take me to/over the cap. Plus, I've been slept before and when most of your 'power' is in your toggles, that often leads to hospital visits (not that that's foreign to me :D ).

I was just wondering if it would make sense to get TI ASAP and push some other things back. I just like the idea of having strong "always on" buffs more than "END willing" ones. But not if it's gonna turn me into 1 step above 'squishy'.

Supposedly you can go through the whole way without taking TI. I've never done it myself. I didn't start paying attention to the numbers until level 30. I had Invincibility 5 slotted at the time. Now I'm pretty much indestructible.

Noble
04-13-2005, 02:39 AM
For Noble:

6 slot RPD with 6 resist damage
6 slot Unyielding with 5 resists damage and 1 endurence reduction

that takes you up to the cap for smash/lethal damage, no need for the extra endurence eating Temporary Invuln

6 slot Resist energies and resist elements with all resist damages

Later on 6 slot Tough for added defense

still working on unstoppable


Also, tankers have a max of 90% passive resistance cap, so if you have more than that your wasting enhancement slots.

Sword
04-13-2005, 09:30 AM
Hm, let's see if I can't respond to everyone in one post...

Starting from the top.


Remianen: Getting TI early is not a nessessity (I just know I spelled that wrong :P) at early levels. If you've survived so far without TI, you should be good for now. My alt tanker, Rusty Giant, is lvl21 at the moment and is doing very well on just RPD, Dull Pain, UY and Invince. As long as you have Invincible and 6-slotted Unyielding, you have a very good tank. Everything else in the set is just fluff compared to those two powers.

As for travel power, I really don't know. I'd advise you to just take whatever fits your hero concept best. Invuln tankers have enough leverage when it comes to builds that you can take whatever you want.

Freeze Warning: Yeah, just using TI+UY is completely viable. The only problem is that you're forced to use more endurance, which gives you less endurnace to use for attacks. If I ever build a "meatshield" tanker, that's what I'd probably go for.

Coldcut: I'm a strong advocate of of getting Dull Pain perma. But, this doesn't mean you need to run it all the time. As you say, that wastes the healign in it. but it's very good to have it available as often as possible. Dull Pain only gets really helpful in the 40+ game. You run it perma against Psi bosses. Having 40% more HP through the fight is great protection agaisnt their attacks.

Noble: 6-slotted RPD and UY does not cap smashing/lethal damage. it brings you to about 71.5% resistance. You need TI to get up to the cap.
Also, slotting UY 1EndRed 5DamRes, is reducing your resistance. UY is the only power that resists Toxic damage. So if you only have 5DamRes in UY you have less than the max amount of resistance you can have.
Why take Tough? It's just a poor mans Temp Inv. Not to mention that you have to dip into the Fighting Pool to get it.

Xanatos
05-20-2005, 01:08 PM
MC Xan has:

TI = no slots (put in an end reduc)
UY = 6 slot dam res
RPD = 1 slot dam res
RE = 6 slot dam res
RE = 6 slot dam res

That caps me at everything. Toxic is like 40%+ and Psy is nothing unfortunately.

suburbanhell
05-20-2005, 01:25 PM
MC Xan has:

TI = no slots (put in an end reduc)
UY = 6 slot dam res
RPD = 1 slot dam res
RE = 6 slot dam res
RE = 6 slot dam res

That caps me at everything. Toxic is like 40%+ and Psy is nothing unfortunately.

So wait....RPD doesnt' need to be slotted?

Xanatos
05-20-2005, 01:32 PM
I just gave it one slot dam res. It doesn't need any extra ones.

suburbanhell
05-20-2005, 01:42 PM
Major currently has that 5 slotted with damres...

Xanatos
05-20-2005, 02:46 PM
I'd respec out of it if I were you.

I mean you can't exactly make up for the bonus by reducing slotting elsewhere. As TI isn't slotted, and removing anything from UY will drop energy/element resist below the cap.

Greblaja
05-20-2005, 03:35 PM
Blue Hammer has the following:

TI = 1 end reducer
UY = 5 slot dam res, 1 slot end reducer
RPD = 4 slot dam res
RE = 6 slot dam res
RE = 6 slot dam res

Odd build, yes. I might change it again, but I am still evaluating some aspects of it.

Smash/Lethal resist of 62.5% with TI off, 95% with it on. I fight most fights with it off, but toggle in on in big groups, herding, etc. Before the respec, I had this 6 slotted, which only improved it to 67.5%

Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative are all at 84% - could be 88% if UY was 6 slotted dam res

Toxic is at 40 - could be 44, again, if UY was 6 slotted dam res

Psionic is 0% - nothing can be done here.

As you can see, I have an endurance conserving build. Between these end reducers, the end reducers in many attacks, and no hasten, I find I can fight a long long time, to the point where I am likely not even taking conserve energy. I am also leaning towards a regen build (6 slot health/dull pain), so that any damage I do take (and I will take slightly more, on average) is compensated for by the increased regeneration.

I am still evaluating this build, but so far it is working out great.

Sword
05-20-2005, 03:51 PM
The slotting of RPD depends on what you use you hero for. If you like to tank and herd, it's better to have no slots in RPD (or not take it at all) and just use TI most of the time.
If you like to attack a lot, slots in RPD makes you take much more damage before you have to turn on TI, so you save endurnace, which you can use for attacks instead.

Edit: Oh, and Xan, with even level SOs, you have 44% Toxic res to be exact.

Xanatos
05-20-2005, 11:02 PM
I know my calculations Sword. I was just speaking off-hand. :)

Oh and I've got Temp Invauln 6 slotted with end reduc. Possibly wasted slots - but I find it helps :)

vyxzuw
05-21-2005, 02:45 AM
Doesn't Dull Pain give Toxic Resistance also? (Healing Flames does...I may be getting them confused.) (Don't remember if UnYield gives Toxic or not...or even if it's the same as the other res bonuses.)
***
You don't really need ANY slots in RPD...or even have to take it as a tank.

you can get 40%-44% (40 with an end reducer.) with UnY. Temp Inv gives 32.5 base.

So, that's 72.5-77.5. (With RPD 5-slotted, you're at the cap. 97.5%. Note: for soloing, you can turn off TI, and still have 65% s/l res. Which can save on end. Also, Unstoppable with RPD 5-slotted will cap you, without any rez enhance. You already should have 40% RE rez from your passives.)

With 3 SOs, you reach 92% rez. Thus saving you a power.
(Uny-5. TI-3. Plus RE-5.)

With RPD, you have 87.5. With one SO in TI, you hit the cap. (which comes with TI).

So, it's up to you, one power, or two slots. (Of course, once you add in Hammy-Os, it changes things. So does using higher than even SOs.)
***
Roger Jolly's:
RPD 5 res
Unyielding 1 end 5 res
TI 1 end
RE & RE 6 res
Inv 1 end
(will get TH 6 def)

As you can see, he has a lot of passive powers. (I usually just run Unyielding. And will use Inv, if I need ACC.) (Of course, for teams, I go the full set.)

suburbanhell
05-22-2005, 03:10 AM
I'd respec out of it if I were you.

I mean you can't exactly make up for the bonus by reducing slotting elsewhere. As TI isn't slotted, and removing anything from UY will drop energy/element resist below the cap.

Well...here's who I am right now:

http://home.comcast.net/~patuleia/M034.jpg

What do you suggest? Right now I think damage-taking he absolutely kicks ass, but am I over caps and wasting slots at this point? I don't know how any of the math here works...

vyxzuw
05-22-2005, 03:15 AM
For Smash/Lethal, yes.

For Fire, Cold, Energy, Neg Energy...no.

(Nor for Toxic or Psi...but you can't raise that any higher)

Right not you have
Unyielding 20base +6*(.2*20)=44
RE 20 base +3*(.2*20)=32
So 76% total. (Damage cap is 90%)
Each SO in RE, will add 4%.

With 3 more, you will hit 88% (3 in each).

For resistance and defense charts I use: http://cohvault.ign.com/ Go to the scrapper and tank guides section.

Sword
10-10-2005, 04:23 PM
Unsticking this, as it's sooo outdated now it's not even funny.

Well, ok, a little bit funny perhaps :P

Masked Revenger
10-10-2005, 08:52 PM
See, and here I was going to start reading through this due to CaptainCrusaider being an Inv/SS tank.

So, update it already! :P

Chris

Graphite
10-12-2005, 05:16 AM
Well, I have all the new values Sword. If you want them, I could send you a pm sometime. And yes, you must update it! Give those Inv Tankers some hope, teach them the way of that pure resist build!

Greblaja
10-12-2005, 11:39 AM
I imagine it'd be tough to do an update now with ED looming. Just when you think you've got I5 understood, they are about to change the slotting rules on us, and so the even newer lows in attainable Resistance aren't fully understood as yet.

I sure hope that zerkir build is still viable after this mess. I was looking forward to giving that a real go.

Sword
10-12-2005, 11:44 AM
pm away Graph. And remember: I'm in beta as well, so no fear of breaking any NDAs ;)

suburbanhell
10-12-2005, 01:24 PM
Well, I have all the new values Sword. If you want them, I could send you a pm sometime. And yes, you must update it! Give those Inv Tankers some hope, teach them the way of that pure resist build!

We truly are a dying breed...we must go on!

Sword
10-12-2005, 03:34 PM
Heh, I'm a breed all of my own. With all toggles up and running my collected Defense is...


-5% !

True tankers don't dodge :P

Stan Walker
10-30-2005, 05:38 PM
With I6 and all the hoopla has anyone stuck together a tweaked guide for Invul/Energy? I saw Swords Invul guide and its pretty good was wondering if anyones tweaked it up a notch yet or if its still to early to tell

ThunderMace
10-30-2005, 06:02 PM
you know what? here is my respeccing of my invul heroes.
In all toggles (Resist/defense) take 1 defense out, put 1 end reducer in.
Done.

Sword
10-31-2005, 07:46 AM
Respec guide for Invuln:

3-slot all auto-powers.

4-slot toggles with 3Res/DefBuff and 1EndRed

6-slot all attacks.

Stick excess slots wherever you feel like.

suburbanhell
11-02-2005, 01:57 AM
So we SHOULD use Auto Powers again? :huh:

Sword
11-02-2005, 10:19 AM
Well, you can get by without them, but right now I feel I'm better served by getting what I can out of the set.

Personally, I was allways for taking the Auto powers (well, only take RPD if you have the room) but slotting them was very optional. With ED, a Invuln tanker now has so many excessive slots that you'd actually have to make an effort to NOT slot the auto powers.