Statesman's origion *spoilers *

[Magna Harrier]

Want to know State's origion? Well, you COULD wait till winter and read the exciting novel blahblahblah....

Or read issue #2 of the new comic.

Feel free to turn back should you want to wait till you get your own copy.

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Well, as previously alluded to, States is an Incarnate. If you looked at his Heroclix figure, it had a power called "Zeus' Lightning". When questioned on this, Manticore did pretty much let on that States was fibbing about his past. Well, as Statesman inexplicably decides reveal in issue 2 of the new CoH comic, he gained his powers in 1929 by drinking from the Fountain of Zeus, making him the embodyment of Zues' power and spirit.
It's entirely possible that he's fibbing again, but it does seem to match what hints we've been given.

[BvS]

Shazam!
(The Billy Batson one, not the Gomer Pyle one)

[Morcalivan7]

I thought the power was suppose to be within everyone?

But this does bring one question, how the AT will be accessed in-game.

Perhaps a trial to get to the fountain? Would that trial allow the incarnate AT be a 'half' AT to all of the 5 'base' ATs? For instance Statesman the tanker turning into an Incarnate. Or Lord Recluse resembling that of a Mastermind, perhaps then turning into an Incarnate? It'd be cool if they did it that was as it's provide a new hybrid and progressive format of the otherwise straight forward ATs aside from the epic pools.

It could work like Final Fantasy's multi-classing system.

[Magna Harrier]

I thought the power was suppose to be within everyone?



Well, that was what he SAID. However, as Manticore suggested, chances are he was just BS'ing us.
I agree that something like FFXI's system might be cool... heck, I'd even just switch permanently... make the quest availbile near the endgame.

[Solario]

I thought the power was suppose to be within everyone?

But this does bring one question, how the AT will be accessed in-game.

The whole point of being the "first" hero is often to inspire others, had he said he was like this because of powers beyond us feeble mortals, I doubt it would have been to the same effect.

[Xanatos]

And Zeus is the most powerful God. And the player heroes won't be able to drink from Zeus's pool. And there was joy that Statesman was still the best.

[Bagman]

I liked Statesman's original origin better. Much more inspiring. Maybe I was just fooled by the propaganda though.

[Noble]

Zues is only the most powerful god becuase of his lighting bolts, otherwise him and his siblings would have never defeated theTitans. I'll just go get the cyclops to forge me a few bolts and then we'll see whos the best.

[Randomus]

What is an origion? Is it like an origin? ;)

But yeah, if that's the truth of the matter, it's pretty stupid. But it does fit the name 'Incarnate' better than a natural heroic origin.

[Eomatrix]

OK I am a greek history buff and I was actually a scholar on Greek Mythology before I became a bodyguard. Zeus was not the most powerful god he was just Rhea's favorite and was only saved because Rhea was tired of having her kids eaten and had Zeus brought up elsewhere and Zeus only rules the gods because he was the one that freed them from Cronus's stomach. and Uranus and Gaia were the most powerful Greek deities hence only the Titans ever threatened the world with destuction. Again I apologize for two things again coming into conflict with Xanatos again . And two for derailing the thread. Oh and btw duz this forum use autoban?

[Magna Harrier]

Which still leaves Zeus the most powerful GOD, as was stated above. Far asI remember, the Greek pantheon did'nt include the Titans, the same way the Norse one did'nt include the giants, except for Loki. And, elder or not, the titans still ost their war with the gods, so I'm hard pressed to beleive they're the stronger.

[Noble]

Well... if we go by the Hercules cartoon movie done by disney, Zues got his buttocks kicked by the "make-shift" titans. Then Hercules came and saved Zues. There is some unofficial cannon there that makes zues a pud. And thus Hercules is the strongest Demi-god, who later becomes a god when he dies, to ever exist. Nah :p.

I actually bet Gaia, the big bad grandmother of all the gods, could whip Zues' butt and take over if she wanted. She was around with the six primordeal gods who existed in the darkness before there was anything. Therefore, they would possess the most powers, even though they rule no one but themselves and their respective domains. Zues only is the ruler of the Olympians, his brothers and sisters, and what few titans he decided to let free; Prometheus, Rhea, ect...

EDIT - remember though that the battle between the Olympian gods and the Titans was at a stalemate until Zues and the Olympians freed the Cyclops and the Hundred Handers, and Gigantes from their imprisonment by the Titans. Only then did the Olympians gain the advantage with Zues' now forged lightning, and the aide of the Cyclops ect..

The sad thing is that Kronos, Zues' father, overthrew his own father, Ouranos (one of the six Primordial gods), without lightning OR the aide of the Gigantes.

I say Kronos was stronger than Zues.

And yes Zues IS the most powerful Olympian god thanks to his handy-dandy lightning bolts, but not the most powerful being in Greek Mythology.

[Stan Walker]

bah the egyptian god Khonshu would whup em all :D

[Masked Revenger]

When I read this in the comic book, I have to admit, I thought it was stupid. He's supposed to be a Superman type hero, the first hero, and a patriotic her at that! Now he's some Greek god? It's just not as inspiring.

Chris

[Akamaz]

here's to hoping that the incarnate is like that... i know MDS 0087 could use being an AR/INV/ENG blaster(to simulate power armor)

[Druid]

Yeah but Kronos stole Uranus's scythe and sliced him to bits. One could say that his later downfall was due to the curse uttered b Uranus's head as he threw it into the 'sea' (Or whatever that was) That Kronos's child would do the same, or similar at least, thing to him.

[The Widowed]

Well... if we go by the Hercules cartoon movie done by disney, Zues got his buttocks kicked by the "make-shift" titans. Then Hercules came and saved Zues. There is some unofficial cannon there that makes zues a pud. And thus Hercules is the strongest Demi-god, who later becomes a god when he dies, to ever exist. Nah :p.

I actually bet Gaia, the big bad grandmother of all the gods, could whip Zues' butt and take over if she wanted. She was around with the six primordeal gods who existed in the darkness before there was anything. Therefore, they would possess the most powers, even though they rule no one but themselves and their respective domains. Zues only is the ruler of the Olympians, his brothers and sisters, and what few titans he decided to let free; Prometheus, Rhea, ect...

EDIT - remember though that the battle between the Olympian gods and the Titans was at a stalemate until Zues and the Olympians freed the Cyclops and the Hundred Handers, and Gigantes from their imprisonment by the Titans. Only then did the Olympians gain the advantage with Zues' now forged lightning, and the aide of the Cyclops ect..

The sad thing is that Kronos, Zues' father, overthrew his own father, Ouranos (one of the six Primordial gods), without lightning OR the aide of the Gigantes.

I say Kronos was stronger than Zues.

And yes Zues IS the most powerful Olympian god thanks to his handy-dandy lightning bolts, but not the most powerful being in Greek Mythology.
*ahem*

Z-E-U-S
:P

[inkblaster]

So yeah, getting back to the deal at hand. That is a pretty weak ass origin for Statesman to come up with. I smell in game mechanics/marketing ploy afoot.

[Noble]

Yeah the origin is pretty lame. "Discovered his inner-will" or whatever it was is some weak bull. One more reason for me to look down on Statesman.

And to set the record straight, Kronos castrates his father and does not slice him to bits. Then again there are a couple different versions so both could be right.

EDIT - and I for one am against Incarnates being like that to a very GREAT extent. I think it would be horribly lame to have hundreds of heroes running around with similar powers modeled after Olympian, Egyptian, or Norse gods, to name only a few mythologies.

[Druid]

Yeah that one myth says that after the castration the blood that poured forth became the seas/oceans. But your right there are multiple ones. I belive I had a thread on mythology on the last forum. I'll have to make another one.

[The Icy One]

Wait so.. if I make a Incarnate do they have to be linked to a god of some sort? Cause I wanted my Incarnate to be a cool experiment type. I still have not gotten this comic though.. so.. I'm not sure whats going on.. o.o

[Eomatrix]

No, The Titans qualify as gods because they were deities and Deity means "god". Plus Uranus was tricked and killed WITH HIS OWN WEAPON not killed with brute force like Cronus was. And the only reason the gods won is because there were less titans than there were other creatures that allied with the gods. And on the topic of this thread, I completly agree that the first origin of Statesman was really weak and this is better but still not very good.- Eo
(and fyi, The God of Time is spelled Cronus not Kronos. Kronos is just spelled that way by AoM to make it look cooler in the subtitles.) :mad:

[Akamaz]

Yeah but Kronos stole Uranus's scythe and sliced him to bits. One could say that his later downfall was due to the curse uttered b Uranus's head as he threw it into the 'sea' (Or whatever that was) That Kronos's child would do the same, or similar at least, thing to him.


I thought it was Kronus's umm.. err... "other" head that got thrown into the sea (which was supposed to explain white frothy waves)

(my reason for putting the K in there is did the greek alphabet have a letter "C" I always thought that was why so many greek names were spelt the way that they were, like Konstantin, and such)

[Jade_Dragon]

I thought it was Kronus's umm.. err... "other" head that got thrown into the sea (which was supposed to explain white frothy waves)

(my reason for putting the K in there is did the greek alphabet have a letter "C" I always thought that was why so many greek names were spelt the way that they were, like Konstantin, and such)

Indeed it did not. The third letter of the Greek alphabet was "G". (gamma) Interestingly, it was sometimes drawn similarly to a "C". (Thus the similarity in the two letters)

[Druid]

(and fyi, The God of Time is spelled Cronus not Kronos. Kronos is just spelled that way by AoM to make it look cooler in the subtitles.) :mad:


You can spell it either way and it won't make a difference. This is how the greeks spelled it: Kronos and this is how we typically spell it: Cronus.

Then there are variations of it such as: Kronus, Cronos, and Chronus/Chronos

I'm fairly certain there are other ways as well but off the top of my head that's all I've got.

[Akamaz]

You can spell it either way and it won't make a difference. This is how the greeks spelled it: Kronos and this is how we typically spell it: Cronus.

Then there are variations of it such as: Kronus, Cronos, and Chronus/Chronos

I'm fairly certain there are other ways as well but off the top of my head that's all I've got.

OOH! OHH! Pick me!!! I know the answer!!!

Uranus :) I just love saying that word... Uranus...

[Jade_Dragon]

OOH! OHH! Pick me!!! I know the answer!!!

Uranus :) I just love saying that word... Uranus...

Uranus was the Roman version of the name. Just as all planets are. (Zeus=Jupiter, Hermes=Mercury, Aphrodite=Venus, etc.)

And I won't comment on the pronunciation of the word, but I will direct you to Futurama for further information... :D

[edit] The above is completely wrong.

The god of time, Chronos, is in Roman SATURN, not Uranus. He is NOT the same as Cronos, or Kronos, who was a Titan, not a god. They are confused for each other, however, and may have actually been merged in Greek times. Both are identified with Saturn, so by Roman times they were the same.

Uranus is the ONLY god (Titan, actually, or father of a Titan) to have his Greek name used for the planet. In Roman he was Coelus. He represented the sky, although he wasn't the god of the sky since in the mythology he was killed.

Thank you Wikipedia... :D

[Akamaz]

Uranus was the Roman version of the name. Just as all planets are. (Zeus=Jupiter, Hermes=Mercury, Aphrodite=Venus, etc.)

And I won't comment on the pronunciation of the word, but I will direct you to Futurama for further information... :D

[edit] The above is completely wrong.

The god of time, Chronos, is in Roman SATURN, not Uranus. He is NOT the same as Cronos, or Kronos, who was a Titan, not a god. They are confused for each other, however, and may have actually been merged in Greek times. Both are identified with Saturn, so by Roman times they were the same.

Uranus is the ONLY god (Titan, actually, or father of a Titan) to have his Greek name used for the planet. In Roman he was Coelus. He represented the sky, although he wasn't the god of the sky since in the mythology he was killed.

Thank you Wikipedia... :D


sorry bout the confusion, and I was wrong about the frothy waves part.... it was the milky way instead... so think of that the next time you eat a candy bar....

[Jade_Dragon]

sorry bout the confusion, and I was wrong about the frothy waves part.... it was the milky way instead... so think of that the next time you eat a candy bar....

Actually, you were right about that. Aphrodite or Venus was the result of Uranus's, um, "parts" being thrown into the sea.

Since Aphrodite was descended from Uranus, and not Cronos, and Chronos appeared from "out of nowhere", both could be said to neither "gods" (related to Zeus) nor Titans. In fact, that's why Aphrodite ended up married to Hephaestus, Zeus chose him instead of Ares because then Ares would have had more of a claim on his throne.

[Redcat]

been to long since I've done any real thinking on gods but if I remember correctly the Romans did not have a set of their own they adopted gods from other countries they overthrew. So many of the gods were combined and confused over time, at least I think they were.

[Jade_Dragon]

been to long since I've done any real thinking on gods but if I remember correctly the Romans did not have a set of their own they adopted gods from other countries they overthrew. So many of the gods were combined and confused over time, at least I think they were.

Actually, no, the Roman mythology was pretty much lifted word for word from the Greek.

Norse mythology, however, shows definate signs of having been thrown together from a number of different sources, most likely from conquered people. The Vanir such as Frey and Freya are different enough from Odin and the other Aesir than they probably came from another mythology.

[Redcat]

well like I said been a long time since I messed with any of the gods so it doesn't surprise me that I was a bit confused. =) Used to be real interested in mythology at least enough that I did a report on it in school one day with out being asked to.

[Eomatrix]

Read my post about the titans being DEITIES! Deity for those of you who cant figure out what it means, IT MEANS GOD! JESUS CHRIST AKAMAZ! IT'S CALLED A DICTONARY! IT'S A BIG BOOK WHICH TELLS YOU WHAT THINGS MEAN! TRY READING IT!

[vyxzuw]

The Greeks stratification refered to Gods as being the Titans CHILDREN. Thus Titans cannot be Gods. Diety may mean God. But God generally also is refered to a being that humans WORSHIP. Humans didn't worship the titans. (Since humans came after the titans were banished.)

Also, the Dictionary is for English words, not ancient Greek words. Ancient Greek, btw ISN'T English.

[Yin]

This is perfect. You mean to tell me that all I had to do was say Yin drank from a fountain in Merewether and I could've avoided all that complex crap. Sheesh. Damn me for my creativity. :P

[Apollinaris]

I'm a little dissapointed to hear that incarnate seems to mean incarnating some divine power left to be discovered by something so simple as drinking a fountain. I much rather liked the whole inner-will thing. I was really hoping that incarnate meant that a person came to incarnate some sort of aspect by being dedicated to it, embodying it on earth. Similar in a way to how Paladins in D&D embody justice. (This is why in D&D you can have paladins without a deity.) I was looking forward to hearing that Statesman was an incarnation of law and Recluse was an incranation of tyrany. But I guess we're not going to have that then. I'm sad. :(

[Liquidiz]

Isn't Lord Recluse an incarnate too, this would explain why he keeps handing Stateman his ass. With the powers of Cronus or a spider...or a spider God i will crush you.

[inkblaster]

This is perfect. You mean to tell me that all I had to do was say Yin drank from a fountain in Merewether and I could've avoided all that complex crap. Sheesh. Damn me for my creativity. :P


Yeah, who'd a thunk that hero origins could be so easy, and to think folks here are asking for help with origins. Well it's just so simple friend, they drank from a magic fountain that nobody else has found before or since. Simple!

[coldcut]

I'm not sure that anyone has their mythology completely 100% straight in this thread. Seeing as it's mythology, that's probably appropriate.

I never bought the Inner Will bit, either. For one thing, it didn't explain flying. It meant that any and everybody could fly if they just thought about it hard enough, and that didn't sit right with me. For another thing, it was lifted from one of the more sinister villains in comic book history, Ozymandias, which always had me looking at States a little cross-eyed.

[Magna Harrier]

I am suprised at all the folks who were complaining about how the fountain origin is sooo luch lamer than the old one. Was "I mediatated alot, and now I'm Superman" really THAT great?

[Liquidiz]

I am suprised at all the folks who were complaining about how the fountain origin is sooo luch lamer than the old one. Was "I mediatated alot, and now I'm Superman" really THAT great?

True, but i even like the one that was hinted in a prebeta video, jack gave which kindof leaned towards Stateman's helmet being the source of his power...Lord Recluse also wears a helmet...maybe States is BSing again, about both origin and Incarnate may just power from a relic(which might just be magic origin, then again drinking from a mystical fountain is magic too)...much like Latern..or Thunderstrike that Thor wanna be. What do i know, i guess we will find out soon enough if ne of us are right.

[Apollinaris]

I'm not sure that anyone has their mythology completely 100% straight in this thread. Seeing as it's mythology, that's probably appropriate.

I never bought the Inner Will bit, either. For one thing, it didn't explain flying. It meant that any and everybody could fly if they just thought about it hard enough, and that didn't sit right with me. For another thing, it was lifted from one of the more sinister villains in comic book history, Ozymandias, which always had me looking at States a little cross-eyed.

I am suprised at all the folks who were complaining about how the fountain origin is sooo luch lamer than the old one. Was "I mediatated alot, and now I'm Superman" really THAT great?

Frankly, no. The whole "inner will" bit doesn't seem lame to me at all. No more lame than, "I adventured around, dedicated the purest ideals of law and order, upholding them and now I'm a paladin. I can heal people, don't get sick, and can summon a celestial steed to aid me!" That whole inner will thing to me is always very inspiring because it aludes to the possiblity of unlocked human potential and is just very inspiring. True it's a lot like your natural hero, but it always seemed to me in the old origin that Statesman had evolved to a new stage in human ability that went beyond the natural origin.

[Randomus]

You should probably still look at States cross-eyed. He's been lying to the entire world for how long now? Just to make himself look better?

[Akamaz]

so if states is zeus, who do you suppose Recluse is supposed to be?

[Meltman]

so if states is zeus, who do you suppose Recluse is supposed to be?

Arachne?

[Akamaz]

yeah, but why would she be mad at zeus? wasn't it what's her name...err...Athena! yeah, unless Statesman suddenly came across a spring which gave him the powers of like, a lot of greek gods and umm.. he's like not telling us...err... arachne was turned into a spider by Athena :)

[inkblaster]

He could just be another explorer like Cole, who sought the same type of thing. Here (http://www.janeresture.com/micronesia_myths/kiribati.htm) is a page regarding a creation spider-god called Nareau from Micronesia mythology. Micronesia is in the Far East, a group if islands.

[Magna Harrier]

Frankly, no. The whole "inner will" bit doesn't seem lame to me at all. No more lame than, "I adventured around, dedicated the purest ideals of law and order, upholding them and now I'm a paladin. I can heal people, don't get sick, and can summon a celestial steed to aid me!" That whole inner will thing to me is always very inspiring because it aludes to the possiblity of unlocked human potential and is just very inspiring. True it's a lot like your natural hero, but it always seemed to me in the old origin that Statesman had evolved to a new stage in human ability that went beyond the natural origin.


If I'm remembering my fantasy settings right, don't most paladins also gain that power from religious piety? IE a god? I've never really gotten the impression that a paladin was the next stage in evolution, considering that the medieval inspiration like Saint George and the like were all religious pilgrims as well as great warriors, and all the modern fantasy characters were also similarly pious. Being athist/agnostic/apathetic, I still find them quite inspiring, if only because it can show the value of spiritual conviction in the face of a genrally jaded gaming community.
Still, I agree with your appreciation of inner conviction being an inspiration... to a point. Somehow, I just don;t see flight and laser eye beams popping up in our genetic code at any point soon. And we'll become immortal about the same time we become sterile.

[Blackbat]

I am suprised at all the folks who were complaining about how the fountain origin is sooo luch lamer than the old one. Was "I mediatated alot, and now I'm Superman" really THAT great?

I always thought of it like he "unlocked" or "learned to use" a hidden part, or an used part of his brain that we all have. His willpower was so great that he was able to evolve (I guess thats the right word for that kind of thing).

But as mentioned, they didn't really go into a whole lot of detail to make it seem doable.

[Jade_Dragon]

It's possible that "Incarnate" does not refer to the origin itself, but to the results of the origin. For instance, Statesman supposedly drank from some fountain, which would appear to be Magic origin, but the result was that he became an incarnation of Zeus. Or possibly even more generally, the incarnation of physical power and leadership.

This would fit with the original theory of "Incarnate" being a higher form of the existing archetypes. A Tanker is a Tanker, but an Incarnate Tanker is the very personification of the archetype. Likewise Batman, although he is Natural Origin, could be considered the Incarnate of a symbol of fear and vengeance.

Of course, if we think of Incarnate in the same sense as the Kheldian archetypes/origins, then it is an archetype and origin all in one. And likely you have a set of powers available to the Incarnate, as with Kheldian. I don't see different types of Incarnate (or maybe there will be, as well Kheldian) but in the simplest form, then, it would just be a personification of some cosmic force. With powers that reflect that.

Or maybe I'm just giving the devs too much credit... :D

[Yin]

Read my post about the titans being DEITIES! Deity for those of you who cant figure out what it means, IT MEANS GOD! JESUS CHRIST AKAMAZ! IT'S CALLED A DICTONARY! IT'S A BIG BOOK WHICH TELLS YOU WHAT THINGS MEAN! TRY READING IT!

Going to ask that you not respond to someone like this again. This is considered inflammatory on three accounts. If you would like to know I will PM you. Also, your post was reported to me, so I'm not picking on you.

[Blue Bolt]

Gimme the boots of Hermes anyday ;)

[Eomatrix]

Oh Ok, thanks for warning me Threshold. P.S. I agree with the "natural Origin is lame comment"

[Apollinaris]

If I'm remembering my fantasy settings right, don't most paladins also gain that power from religious piety? IE a god? I've never really gotten the impression that a paladin was the next stage in evolution, considering that the medieval inspiration like Saint George and the like were all religious pilgrims as well as great warriors, and all the modern fantasy characters were also similarly pious. Being athist/agnostic/apathetic, I still find them quite inspiring, if only because it can show the value of spiritual conviction in the face of a genrally jaded gaming community.
Still, I agree with your appreciation of inner conviction being an inspiration... to a point. Somehow, I just don;t see flight and laser eye beams popping up in our genetic code at any point soon. And we'll become immortal about the same time we become sterile.

In the latest version of D&D it states that the paladin class does not need to have a diety, unlike a cleric which does need a diety. The paladin can therefore simply dedicate themselves to the preceps of order and good in general.

I believe the reason being is that in D&D besides having planes of the different dieties, there's also prime planes of fire, water, etc. There's also prime planes of order, chaos, good, and evil. Thereforce one can simply draw on their power, no diety needed (And in fact, IIRC some of the dieties get their deific powers by simply becoming attuned to using and absorbing the power of these planes.) So if we look at the incarnate that way, Statesman becomes an incarnate by unlocking the power of his inner will and attuning himself to a primal force behind this precept by being utterly dedicated to it. I like it.

Considering the fact that we've seen characters in Dragon Ball Z who blow up planets by training "Really really hard" I don't find it that crazy. ;) Besides, in the end it's just a superhero fantasy. If you want to say, "Anyone can do this if they totally dedicate themselves to a precept." then you can!

[Eomatrix]

God I totally derailed this thread.