Ranting time again.

[Malibu Sally]

Ranting time again.

Did a mission tonight that had both Crey and Malta baddies. We came upon a group of various sorts and began the attack. The scrapper tied up the boss and a few minions while I pegged the periphery.... at least, that is what I tried to do.

One minion(a yellow conning Crey Agent) broke from the main group and headed my way. This is how the encounter then unfolded for me: Shoot-miss, back up, Shoot-miss, back up more, Shoot-miss, villain gets within melee range, Shoot-miss, Villain hits me for half my hit points, begin running, villain hits me for the remainder of my hit points.

I suppose I could have popped a couple of greens to survive the encounter, but I had already eaten them because an earlier minion did similar amounts of damage.

What the hell is wrong here? Four consecutive misses and then TWO SHOTTED by a MINION! City of Heroes? BS! City of Pinatas maybe. Or City of Delicate Tea Sets is more likely. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[IamLink]

I would think you'd be used to being squishy by then...

[Malibu Sally]

I would think you'd be used to being squishy by then...

There is a VAST difference between being squishy and being squishy to the point of being two shotted by a yellow minion. Honest to God, this is absurd.

[Kinetix]

slot better...

[ThunderMace]

Nah, I think blasters need a bit of defense, it's the haves and have nots.

I was doing the sewer trial @ lvl 36 and the Rikti were lvl 42. do you think they could kill me? Nope. But the blaster was one shotted 2 times, and this was in a good group. So a tank can stand in the middle of 10-15 +6 Rikti and blasters get kilt by a minion?

So I say give 'em a little defense. Not alot, mind you, but something. (maybe everyone gets a now balanced smoke grenade type of power, I dunno)

[IamLink]

what about the defensive power pools?

[Fantasmo]

I have this problem with my Electrical blaster too. I agree with ThunderMace, I think just a little defense would help.

Although, it seems like some nights I do real well and no deaths. Then some nights like last night, I was killed 3 times in a row in a CoT mission. This frustrated me so much, I logged off and started playing my other characters, heh.

[Morcalivan7]

When I play my Kin I usually end up having my health brough to a sliver before my transfusion kicks in to send it right back up. Mostly I get about 2-3 shots off before I have to re-heal. Depending on the power of course though as Fulcrum Shift, Neutron Bomb and Sould Drain have a good sized animation, so I usually have to seperate those between heals. Point is, only as a Kin and not even as an Empath could I withstand melee. I don't think it's fair to ask that of a Blaster who though like a Kin has no status, has not a single combat heal.

Imo they should expand on range=defense and the blasters=evasive to add some reflex inherant powers like the criticals of scrappers and the 'hide/rage' of stalkers/brutes. Obviously if they're making it available for those Ats they can add something similar to the Blaster ATs.

[Vendel]

Well States did mention very recently that Blasters will be gettign some love in the future.........so there is alway hope

[Poison]

The same could have happened to a defender or controller, we all have the same defense (aka none). Crey Agents use martial arts or energy melee, meaning they're scrappers. If the one got into your melee range, you should have used your secondary melee powers or run. 4 consecutive misses can and do happen, not only when your powers are badly slotted (yellow enhances).

:rant:

[Sable Phoenix]

The cardinal rule in City of Heroes is as follows: Defense Trumps All. It's just a fact, and there is no counter-trump.

It can come in several forms, whether it's straight defense or resistance, or the more indirect forms like status effects, buff/debuffs, and to a lesser extent through combat mobility (which has been nicely removed with Suppression, anyway). All archetypes have one or more of these forms, save for Blasters. Blasters, quite simply, have no defense whatsoever. Statesman's wrong when he says that range equals defense. Under the CoH game system, it doesn't.

And if Defense Trumps All, and Blasters have none, well...

[Sword]

Yeah, if there was range modifiers in the game, making it harder to hit, the farther away you were from the target, ranged would =defense. But with the system we have, ranged used in melee range and ranged used at actual range is identical.
At early levels, mobs have weak ranged attacks and good melee attacks. At higher levels though, many mobs don't even HAVE melee attacks. So the mobs are just as happy to be at range as the blasters are. That doesn't make for an advantage for blasters.

[inkblaster]

Sally don't you have cloaking device? Is it slotted? What other defenses do you have? Hover? I know end drain is an issue, but I'd rather see my blue bar dwindling on empty than my green bar.

Until Statesman gets around to actually doing something about blasters as opposed to crackin' wise about how we suck, you may want to use one of the handy respecs to get some more defenses.

My personal option right now is phase shift, if I aggro a Crey scraptector, I so phase shift, at the time of the first hit if I can.

Nothing beats complete intangibility. Sometimes I don't always get it off, but it has saved my butt over a half dozen times in the last few weeks, and that's a lot of debt saved.

[Tarberetta]

Yea...I feel bad because I was the scrapper with Sally :(

Went smashing for the taunt button only to realize that it was disabled due to RSK and didn't get there in time.


Sally has a real point. I've never seen anyone drop so fast before. Blasters need something, weither it's more HP's or some defense, something needs to be done.

[Randomus]

I know Sally has Cloaking Device because it was on during that PvP brawl we had way back. 'Course I could still hit her because I 6-slotted Tactics, but that's another story.

[D'Arkaine]

As another blaster, I can feel Sally's pain. I have respecced vindicator and respecced him trying to get a build with a little more survivability. Respecced to the point of losing powers I WANT to have in order to have powers to let me survive just a little bit longer. Put simply there are some nights when I go to play and I want to play my blaster (i really want to get him to 50 at some point), but decide not to take on that headache. This is something I mainly see in the later levels.

When I RSK down into lower levels, I still have a hell of a lot of fun. Heck - I've had fun PVP matches set to straw-weight with vind.

Late game, I have 6slotted most defensive powers (hover gets speed) and half of the slots in all of my attack powers get ACC SOs (mainly because I seem to be whiffing more).

I'm just hoping that whatever they do to help blasters helps us. Something that doesn't overpower us or depower any other AT. Maybe something that would make range actually be a component of defense or something like a defensive version of critical hits for blasters. Say melee attacks against us have a small chance to be brawl level instead of half or more of our hitpoints.

[Thermyte]

I say us blasters get the option to drive a tank!

[Stalking Shadow]

The "tank" epic power pool? ;)

This is why I want to get that body armor epic power

[Xanatos]

Why didn't you use:
-Web grenade
-Aim
-Cloaking Device
-Targetting Drone

Each one would haver helped you out considerably :)

[Malibu Sally]

slot better...

Drop dead.

[Xanatos]

So out of all the posts people have made to help you out you decide to reply only to the negative inflammatory one? It seems to me like you're trying to draw out an argument Sally.

Chill out. The problem is with the game mechanics - not the people here.

[inkblaster]

Why didn't you use:
-Web grenade
-Aim
-Cloaking Device
-Targetting Drone

Each one would haver helped you out considerably :)

Man, talk about poking the bear Xan!

that said *cough* caltrops *cough*

[Malibu Sally]

Why didn't you use:
-Web grenade
-Aim
-Cloaking Device
-Targetting Drone

Each one would haver helped you out considerably :)

Targetting Drone is 6 slotted with to-hit buff enhancements(all of which are up to date.

Cloaking device was on.

Aim was recharging.

Web Grenade was the only one you mentioned that I did not use. It does not change the fact the I should not be two shotted by a minion... A yellow conned minion at that!

And to those of you who feel I should take the dive into the Pool Powers to get defenses.... Tell me please which of my primary and secondary powers I should not take or not slot in order to get the meager amounts of defense that the pools offer.

[Blackbat]

It would help, if we could see your current build. I'm sure someone here could give some slotting/power adivice if they knew what you already had and how it was slotted. :)

[Malibu Sally]

Man, talk about poking the bear Xan!

that said *cough* caltrops *cough*

Caltrops are becoming less usefull. The room we were in had no good "choke points" to toss caltrops. In open spaces, the enemies just dance around the trop patch... that is if they don't just waltz over them with no effect.

[IamLink]

well if you want the defense you're gonna have to make sacrifices....I don't have a travel power and I only have 3 attacks (Including brawl) on my katana scrapper but I never run out of end and hardly ever die. I sacrificed the more powerful attacks in order to keep my toggles and defenses going.

I'm poor at argueing, lol..but i'm trying to make this work

[Malibu Sally]

well if you want the defense you're gonna have to make sacrifices....I don't have a travel power and I only have 3 attacks (Including brawl) on my katana scrapper but I never run out of end and hardly ever die. I sacrificed the more powerful attacks in order to keep my toggles and defenses going.

I'm poor at argueing, lol..but i'm trying to make this work

Thanks for the attempt.

Keep in mind that any defensive benefit the pools provide is much less for blasters than scrappers.(can't recall the exact numbers... they were posted over on the official boards ages ago) Having only 3 attacks would cripple me to the point that I would not be able to do a respec mission to change it. My best defense so far has been to kill the enemy as quickly as possible so only 3 attacks would not work.

[Jade_Dragon]

First of all, four misses in a row is a BUG. Report it. You should never miss four times in a row, certainly not against a yellow minion.

For an average Blaster over level 30, being two-shotted AT MELEE RANGE seems perfectly reasonable to me. One shot you should have a good chance to survive, so you can get off a counterattack and get out of there. But you should get hit pretty hard. You shouldn't be able to avoid melee every time, but you should try most of the time, because it'll cost you HP that you have to recover.

If your description of what happened was accurate, you had the time to get off three shots before the thug even attacked you. By all logic you should have had the advantage. That you missed three times was unlikely, even unfortunate, but you should have gotten him on the fourth shot. Depending on the attack, you should have either postponed his second attack long enough for you to survive, or dropped him before he could make it. That's just tactics, and isn't really important.

The bigger issue is damage at range. You didn't say if he was shooting at you as he closed, and I assume he wasn't. But if he had been, I would have been much more concerned about your chances. That's where the Blaster is disproportionally weak, and I do agree he needs more defenses. Not necessarily Defense, though. The odds that you can miss three times in a row are just as good as the odds that he will hit three times in a row, even if you drop the to hit to 5%. If you can be two- or three-shotted even at range, you WILL be dropped. Defense just postpones the inevitable.

Now, I suspect that there were additional factors here that you did not mention. You may not even remember it. You said that you missed four times in a row, but I'm assuming that's with primary attacks. You did not say if you were using targetted secondaries or other debuffs. If you HIT with one of those "attacks", then that threw off the streak breaker and allowed you to miss those four times. That's just bad luck. Luck that can possibly be compensated for with tactics.

The problem is that the Blaster doesn't have enough defense to compensate for that kind of bad luck. With a Controller you can stop attacking and just concentrate on holds until the bad luck passes. Even so, streaks can hurt a Controller a lot, I know from experience. Blasters don't even have that option.

When I have a bad streak, I just stop attacking, pick my most powerful attacks, the most important ones for what I need to do, (i.e., if I need to hold then I pick that instead of damage) and I don't do anything else until I successfully hit. If I miss three times in a row, I MAKE SURE my next one is not going to be Brawl or some other minimally useful power. If I have to wait for the one I want to recharge, then that's what I do. Keeping away from the foe if I have to, while I wait.

But I don't really know what you could have done any different. It's possible you could have seen the bad streak coming when you missed two times, and acted more defensively, rather than trying to run only AFTER you were hit once. It's also possible that you could have changed the order of your attacks, skipping a Power that you don't think of as an "attack" to make sure that what you wanted to hit, hit. But I can't say as how any of that would have changed anything. At least maybe it is some advice that will help next time.

[Quakester]

Missing 4 times could just be crappy luck. It's happened to me with Aim and build up going an the first shot was my snipe. According to the numbers, I should have been able to hit anything.

Getting 2 shotted by a yellow minion? That's just wrong.

[Jade_Dragon]

I seriously hate it when I go Aim+Build Up+Snipe, then miss. That's just not right...

It shouldn't be POSSIBLE to miss four times in a row, though. Not unless your chance to hit is under 25%. There is code in the game to prevent that. So if it happens, REALLY happens, and there wasn't some "attack" in there that hit that you don't count as a hit or something, then /bug it.

Granted, I HAVE missed four times in a row before. It's entirely possible I just miscounted. But I still bugged it.

Personally, what I think the streak-breaker should do is break four misses in a row WITH THE SAME ATTACK, not just with any attack. That could be worse, though, because theoretically you could miss 12 times in a row (assuming you had four attacks in your sequence) before you hit. The problem, though, is that you get streaks of Brawl and Jab hitting (just to use SS as an example) and KO Blow and Haymaker keep missing. Or you hit with Brawl and Spectral Wounds, but Blind is missing and you can't keep him pinned down.

[Graphite]

The chance to miss four times, with out any modifiers like slots and levels, should be around (1/2)^2 = 1/16 or around 5%. Read Sarcassim: Congrats, you had really losy luck and just critically botched. That said, I don't think its fair for blasters to die soo easily. Personally, I much perfer early game when it takes 3-5 hits which feels much more heroic. I can appricate the frustation (from both Sally and Tarberetta) because as a tank I feel really bad if one of my team falls yet feel theres not a whole lot I can do to stop from losing one or two minnions from my herd. They are the only archetype that does not get a heal (primary or secondary), their role (ie damage) can be out done by scrappers and tankers (outside of aoes), and range doesn't get them much of anything. Hate to rant, but I am glad that States is taking a look at them. No class should have to deal with Permadebt.

[BvS]

I feel your pain, Sally.

My experience with Bombshell convinced me early on that the coding was slanted heavily against intelligent blonde blaster babes. The fat cat male number crunchers just had to be laughing in their cubicles every time she got faceplanted. I considered making a /bind that said "Oh look! The pavement!", but decided it'd be too much trouble to make one for every type of map, such as "Oh look! Lab floor!" and "Oh look! Sewer shmutz!"


;takes tongue out of cheek
Since she was my first toon, played from release, a LOT of her power choices and slotting really sucked (probably still do after respecs).

What I did learn was that, for a blaster, defense and accuracy are your bread and marmalade; and those are the two that I concentrate on early in the game with new toons, regardless of their AT.

IF you have a respec available, or are still able to do a trial to obtain one, I would suggest going the same route and, before committing yourself to a revised build in the actual game, experiment with your options on the test server until you come up with a toon that can survive longer.

You'll still be at the mercy of the random 'to hit' coding on your attacks and there will still be times when, out of nowhere, the ground will jump up and hit you in the face but, all in all, I think you'll have a more enjoyable playing experience.

Good luck.

[Akamaz]

I seriously hate it when I go Aim+Build Up+Snipe, then miss. That's just not right...

It shouldn't be POSSIBLE to miss four times in a row, though. Not unless your chance to hit is under 25%. There is code in the game to prevent that. So if it happens, REALLY happens, and there wasn't some "attack" in there that hit that you don't count as a hit or something, then /bug


hasn't states said time and time again that there is no "Streak Breaker" or is that just for vilians.

[8 Ball]

Correct me if I'm horribly wrong here in regards to the streak breaker code but doesn't it only apply if you use the same attack 4 times in a row?

[Tarberetta]

Supposedly there is a steak breaker for Hero's but not for villans.

Also, it should be *any* attacks, not just the same type.

[Quakester]

I've missed 6 times in a row but the didn't miss again for the next 30 or so, so I'm hard pressed to complain.

[Darknesse]

I just wanted to pop in and point out that as far as I can tell, it is not possible to get 2 shotted by a yellow minion with a blaster under normal circumstances. The only way I can see this happening is if they hit you with their biggest attack every time (their attacks recharge just like ours do, which makes this unlikely) or maybe if they hit a critical or something, or if you were fighting those rare mobs that hit WAY harder in melee while having weak ranged attacks (warwolves come to mind).

With my SR scrapper, I have a bit more hp than a blaster (70% of a tanker as opposed to 50% of a tanker). To date, I have never been 3 shotted or even 4 shotted by an yellow minion, or even a LT or Boss.

So unless mob damage increases dramatically at higher levels (which it doesn't), I have a hard time thinking that this wasn't just a fluke.

[Jade_Dragon]

hasn't states said time and time again that there is no "Streak Breaker" or is that just for vilians.

The "streak breaker" ONLY breaks MISSES. It does not break hits. So you can hit any number of times in a row. This is something Statesman's had to correct a few times.

I believe the streak breaker also applies to villains (that is, if they miss three times, they'll hit) but I'm not sure. It's possible that it doesn't. Even if it does, if the villain has a less than 25% chance to hit you, he can easily miss you four or more times in a row. (The streak breaker will not allow you to hit when you normally wouldn't be able to)

The devs have confirmed that the streak breaker exists, so it's no myth.

[Mahaf]

Sally.. Any time you see me on, send my ass a tell to join you. I have a Controller (That needs a respec, admittedly) and a Scrapper that might help (with Death Shroud he can hold pretty good aggro as long as a lot of AoE attacks aren't used). I don't like to see anyone NOT have fun (I've been there myself, it sucks), so I'll be glad to help you have fun in any way I can.

[vyxzuw]

The being two-shotted by a minion is sucky, but I can see it. (Some minions are very melee oriented, and can hit hard.)

The real problem with this, is the missing 4 times in a row. Question: Were any of the attacks you used AoE attacks? (Including Cone attacks, such as Energy Torrent.) It could be that you missed the guy you were trying to hit, but nailed a bunch behind him.

Also, you could have dropped caltrops right where you were standing, when he was rushing. This would have bought you another attack, or so.

[Randomus]

Don't forget that the Crey agents have Super Reflexes, too.

[Jade_Dragon]

So unless mob damage increases dramatically at higher levels (which it doesn't), I have a hard time thinking that this wasn't just a fluke.

I suspect that indeed damage does increase dramatically from 30 to 50. With my own highest level character at 30, I can't say this for sure. However, as Scrapper and Tanker defenses are rising in effectiveness from 30 to 50, (for the most part linearly) I would say it's unlikely that the damage remains the same.

From my experience so far, I would say that between levels 1-10 a character with no Resistance is extremely survivable, taking very little damage compared to his HP, especially at range. Between 10-20 the damage is greater, but I would estimate no more than about 1/10 of the total hit points. Between 20 and 30, however, damage gets great enough that particular opponents, like Trolls and Banished Pantheon, can do 1/5 to 1/3 of hit points with a single punch. If the progression continues, one shot kills could become likely.

Perhaps one solution would be to stop the damage progression, and increase enemy accuracy instead. (Although many high level enemies become more accurate anyway) Player damage DOES stop progressing linearly after about level 30.

[Malibu Sally]

The being two-shotted by a minion is sucky, but I can see it. (Some minions are very melee oriented, and can hit hard.)

The real problem with this, is the missing 4 times in a row. Question: Were any of the attacks you used AoE attacks? (Including Cone attacks, such as Energy Torrent.) It could be that you missed the guy you were trying to hit, but nailed a bunch behind him.

Also, you could have dropped caltrops right where you were standing, when he was rushing. This would have bought you another attack, or so.

Yes, one of the attacks WAS an AoE. Energy Torrent. It was the last shot I fired. I was far enough from the rest that it did not affect them. I am very certain of this.

Yes I could have dropped caltrops right in front of me. But really, I should have nailed the guy at least twice before that would have been necessary.

[Randomus]

The few times I play my AR/Dev blaster, I find it's safer to lay down a Caltrop patch before I start attacking. It's just safer that way, and it helps guard against flukes like this. Might want to give that a shot, see how it works for you.

[Jade_Dragon]

The real problem with this, is the missing 4 times in a row. Question: Were any of the attacks you used AoE attacks? (Including Cone attacks, such as Energy Torrent.) It could be that you missed the guy you were trying to hit, but nailed a bunch behind him.

That's another point I hadn't thought of. AoE attacks count as multiple attacks. So you can use up your "streak breaker" just in a single AoE attack.

My style is more single target oriented, so I don't have to deal with that a lot. (Then again, Energy Torrent is a fairly common attack to use in that set's sequence)

Basically, the streak breaker is of no help in a) making sure the same attack hits one time out of every four or b) making sure the same target is hit one time out of every four. It's a freakin' useless thing, sometimes. :D

[Malibu Sally]

The few times I play my AR/Dev blaster, I find it's safer to lay down a Caltrop patch before I start attacking. It's just safer that way, and it helps guard against flukes like this. Might want to give that a shot, see how it works for you.

That dosen't work anymore. The mobs have gotten a LOT smarter in the last 6 months. Like I said in an earlier post, they either skirt around the patch, or they waltz right over it with no effect.(and I DO mean "Waltz". I can almost hear "Blue Danube" playing in the background) The room we were in had no choke points so caltrops, I suspect, would have had minimal effect here.

Sometimes they move all the way across and then get slowed, but that is not common.

[Masked Revenger]

I've noticed the smarter mobs too. When I play with Cap lately, my AoE blasts work once before they scatter, unless I'm teamed with a tank or scrapper who can keep them together.

Over all, though, I basicly agree that blasters need SOME form of defense in their power sets. When they fixed tanker taunt so that you weren't forced to get a pool power to be effective, they should have done the same with Blasters. But, I sitll have fun playing Cap, and am just not that bothered by the debt. It goes away when I'm on a good team pretty quickly.

Chris

[Magna Harrier]

Crey, if they're at the level I'm thinking your at (mid to late 30's, maybe early 40's) are a solid pain in the butt, especially if you're in a largish group and the numbers are kicked up. There's the same problem with the Knives of Artemis.
But yeah, sadly, until States decides we deserve a little more defense, we're extremely vunerable in those large fights that break out when you're in a group. My survival rate only went up significantly when I took the Force Mastery epic pool and 6-slotted everything I could with defense. I have ice manipulation as a secondary, so not much help there.

[Randomus]

That dosen't work anymore. The mobs have gotten a LOT smarter in the last 6 months. Like I said in an earlier post, they either skirt around the patch, or they waltz right over it with no effect.(and I DO mean "Waltz". I can almost hear "Blue Danube" playing in the background) The room we were in had no choke points so caltrops, I suspect, would have had minimal effect here.

Sometimes they move all the way across and then get slowed, but that is not common.

Wow, that really sucks.

[Magna Harrier]

Similiar experience with the ice patch. They'll skate across, whack me upside the head... and then fall down. You want imagery... skating freakshow.
Co0me to think of it, there's bound to be a decent video based on the theme "Freaks on Ice" just begging to be made...

[inkblaster]

I believe it used to be every 4th hit was guaranteed if you kept missing, but since the code has been modified so it can be a string of misses, and a string of hits.

As for what defenses to take, it's tough as you are using the 'best' blaster set for defense. Maybe a web grenade would have saved, but it would have had to hit, caltrops may have slowed, if you had room to use them, cloaking would have maybe made the 3rd or 4th hit miss.

This is just a tough situation, situationally wise, it was just a real tough engagement.

What defense to take? If you're going to just take 1, I'd say stealth if you didn't already have cloaking device, I don't think you can use them together. But, that not available, Maneuvers maybe? And as for what to drop, need to know what you got.

edit, and pondering the web grenade deal, maybe that's the answer for blaster defense, something like force bolt from the defender sets, a knock back or hold with a high chance to hit.

Until then a possible option is 6 slot web grenade with acc's?

[Vendel]

I

Until then a possible option is 6 slot web grenade with acc's?


I would only suggest 2
1 acc and 1 imm duration.....works for me


And Sally breathe a little, learn to relax. Im 48 now and I have moved unto the 4th step of blasterdom, Acceptance :shinner:

[Apollinaris]

The "tank" epic power pool? ;)

This is why I want to get that body armor epic power

Just as a note, body armor isn't all that great. I'm energy/devices. I recently respected my character out of Munitions and into Force Mastery, and I absolutely love it. Just as a note I'm always running Targetting Drone, Cloak, Tough, Weave, and Temp Invulnerability. Drone has two endo redux in it, cloak has two endo redux, tough has on endo redux, weave has one endo redux. Force is a very defense oriented APP, you get a very nice toggle, an emergency power in personal force field, and Force of Nature is just plain fun to use, giving you resists and a hefty endurance regen.

Hope this observation helps some.. though yes, the defense is still quite bad. I still can get one shotted by some of the beefier baddies, and fighting anything but smashing/lethal is just plain painful unless force is active, but it's probably the best defense you're going to get for a while.

[ChairLegOfTruth]

Hover and stealth are the way to go with Deava, my blaster.