Websnark on COH [Archive] - City of Heroes Forums

coldcut

06-03-2005, 02:02 AM

http://www.websnark.com/archives/2005/06/can_i_even_do_a.html

Some interesting stuff there; I don't neccesarily agree with all of it.

What I do agree with was about the comic book, which I felt was somehow lacking. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that

*spoiler*

Synapse catching an arrow without his superspeed wasn't exactly kosher, or was confused about Positron's condition. (Even if he's the only one in the city that retains his powers, why is his armor ****ed up?)

(One other thing about the comic: did anyone else get the feeling that Synapse's personality came out of nowhere? He always seemed like a pretty easy going guy in the game, all of a sudden he's all Critical Bill in his rundown apartment.)

*spoiler*

I still think the original was awful, I'm just not as happy about everyone else with the update. Then again, I'm pretty picky about comic books; I'm more enamored with the genre overall than with the whole superhero thing.

Emerald Sky

06-03-2005, 02:56 AM

That whole article wreaked of "DDDDOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!"-dom, not to mention the writer coming across as overly whining.

coldcut

06-03-2005, 05:18 AM

That whole article wreaked of "DDDDOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!"-dom, not to mention the writer coming across as overly whining.

That whole Doom bit was originally used to describe people who were unrelentingly negative about the game in general, and has since been co-opted by people who can't see anything wrong with anything. Seeing as the Guru community is not that simplistic, I would appreciate it if you would keep the main board stuff off of this site.

Noble

06-03-2005, 05:35 AM

I tend to agree with you Monticore. I actually don't like any of the characters at the moment. Heck, Ajax and War Witch were more interesting. Keep in mind that these people are the surviving 8, and yet they come across as something less than the awe-inspiring individuals who survived the Ritki War and are present in the game. Monticore is an over-eager rich boy with little to no sense of forethought. Sister Pysche clearly has issues/conflicts within herself that lend me to believe she is simply insane, not the kind of person/hero I would idolize. Synapse is the disgruntled co-worker who, despite his harsh outlook on life, is still concerned about making sure things end up as they should. And Statesman is a d@mn fool because he ran off without super powers to try and thwart an evil super power. Aside from all of that I like Positron because he is the only one who seems to have any sense.

I'm being overly critical, but, keep in mind that I'm not crazy about them to begin with.

P.S. and where is Citadel and Numina, as well as the other person(s) I'm forgetting?

WingedAvenger

06-03-2005, 05:50 AM

I agree with him about PvP and the allied special effects (boy do I ever agree with that!). Musing over quitting the game because of the comic book is just weak though.

Esbat

06-03-2005, 08:02 AM

Bah, I says.

I'm a freakin' casual gamer... and since I really want to see the high level stuff... I went out and built me a quasi-min-max FOTM build, a freakin' Fire/??? Tanker.

Now in a month or so I'll have my Kheldians and my symptoms will return and Altitis will rear its ugly head but this time I'll have a freakin' Epic AT to work with...

And I love both versions of the comic. :cool:

Randomus

06-03-2005, 12:57 PM

What, you're expecting all the memebers of the Surviving 8 to be Captain America? People have personalities and quirks. Especially superheroes. More often than not the people who have survived horrendous conflicts are just regular people who got lucky and had the skills to pull through. That's the Surviving 8. We already knew States was a dumbass-- he spends 90% of his time getting captured by the same damn guy.

So far I'm not blown away with the comic either, but only because it's a weak rip of the JLA and Manticore is just Hawkeye in a wig. I'm sure Waid will improve as he gets into his groove. He always does.

I strongly disagree that CoH or the Blue King comic have a strong silver-age DC vibe. He seems to be stuck in the view that in Marvel, all heroes are bad all the time and everyone always hates them. I get the impression that the only Marvel comic he has read is X-Men, which has always been a crappy series. And you don't see the citizens of Gotham raising statues to Batman.

This guy is a whiner and constantly contradicts himself. I have no respect for an argument like that. On the one hand he enjoys the game when "every battle is a struggle" and he constantly dies, I assume (I'm guessing he's a pretty crappy player). Then on the other hand he whines that he doesn't "play a superhero game to watch my superhero constantly being defeated and destroyed by the forces of evil". Make up your mind, kid.

Then he whines on further about how PvP is stealing focus from PvE.

But it's not. It's not at all. At any given time there are maybe 5 people doing PvP on the entire server. So Issue 4 had Colosseums. Does it irk him that much that Cryptic gave PvPers a tiny outlet? Does he have that much vitriol towards people who enjoy the challenge of battling another human being? Because there's realyl no other explanation. Cryptic is hammering on the new "big" feature of I4 in their advertising campaigns. Shocking. Unprecedented. What big company would be crazy enough to highlight new features in an ad?!?! He's already said that most of the PvPers left. So now Cryptic's trying to get them back. I don't see where his whiny anger comes into play.

If he feels like a second-class citizen because the current advertising doesn't focus on him, then all I can assume is that he is a very self-centered person.

What evidence is there that all the "cool" new stuff is going to be focussed on PvP? I haven't seen any. What looks great about CoV is new archetypes, new costume options, new powers, bases. New powersets are coming in I5. Skills will be here eventually. The only thing that has anything to do with PvP is base raiding, and the fact that you can engage in PvP with villains if you feel like it. If you don't, you might not get some stupid "TEH FITEZ0RZ!!11" badge. Who cares?

Also, Kheldians suck. If he's that sad about not getting a Kheldian, it's not that hard to get off his ass team up with his friends every once in a while. Don't want to put in the effort to get to 50? Then no ****ty Kheldian. Boo hoo. Get over it.

I think that covers all of his ill-conceived, self-pitying points.

Also, I hate Websnark.

Xanatos

06-03-2005, 01:23 PM

...Also, Kheldians suck...

You were doing so well until this. I'm sorry buddy but I'm going to have to kill you now. *Activates...um...shiny powers*

I agree with everything else you said - the guy seems to be suffering from internet pseudo-fame. And as a consequence - thinks he can be more aggressive in his opinions as he assumes people give a damn about them.

This, frankly, stuns me. I mean... it's City of Heroes. I joined up before it went live! I have tons of characters! And I loves me the Superhero action! What the Hell's wrong with me?

Look at how many times he uses the words "I" or "me" in his opener - he's clearly highly self centred. Something backed up by his over use of the words "I" and "Me" throughout the entire pisspoor attempt at an essay.

And when he's not talking about himself what word does he use - "They". Of course he's going on about the developers - what's irritating is that he writes it as-if we're all aware of his bloody problems. The entire essay stinks of a "Them versus Me" attitude which is totally unjustified.

Masked Revenger

06-03-2005, 01:27 PM

Pretty much agree with Rando... although, I don't have a Kheldian, so I can't say if they suck or not.

Chris

Akamaz

06-03-2005, 02:51 PM

I agree with Xan and rando both... This guy is an "idjit" (that's the technial term)

Looks like this is another case wo call the WAAAAAAAAAmbulance...

inkblaster

06-03-2005, 03:34 PM

Truly the guy is a whiny bi-atch. As a casual gamer, playing for the last 14 months, with my highest level character 35, I can say he just didn't do the few task forces that would have made the difference.

Q. Ok class, how do you level quickly after 25?

A. Task Forces.

Q. But there's no cool content after 25 right?

A. Um, yeah, dumbass, Striga Isle has all these cool temp powers like holy shotgun shells and EMP grenades. At 35 if you work it right you can have a freeze ray gun to use, not to mention the new villain groups and zones that open up.

I do kinda agree a lot on one point though. Positron. If Synapse no longer has his super jacked up neurons, then Positron shouldn't be charged with anti-matter. And what's with the 'leaking' anti-matter, there is no 'leaking', it's anti-matter! Once it gets out of whatever magical containment system he's devised, which the only thing science has been able to use so far is magnetic containment toroids the size of a small apartment, it hits the air and poof, explosion.

So either Positron exploded the moment he was powered down, or he is fine, no in the middle, 'leaking'.

I'm cool with the new comic otherwise. In fact the only reason Sister Psyche is 'psycho' is because of Calvin Scott messing up. It's also the reason Malaise is now a villain again. That comment right there tells me that he doesn't really care to know about the game.

If you're a casual gamer your levels will be low, but if you've been with the game since launch you would at least be following the story line.

It's also the typical grass is greener syndrome. I have yet to see a new game come out that is truly new and innovative like COH. The fact that Turbine is working on both D&D online and LotR online shows how cookie cutter those kind of games are.

Even Imperator was said to have an EQ style of combat, click the A button and you're fighting, and no spaceship controls, wtf? It's supposed to be alternate timeline futuristic, no space flight? That's the one thing Galaxies got right!

Ah well, I'm done ranting here, maybe I should start my own web site rant page so people can link to it. :P

Masked Revenger

06-03-2005, 03:58 PM

Q. Ok class, how do you level quickly after 25?

A. Task Forces.

Except that if you're a casual gammer because you just don't have the time to play often (like myself), this is out of the question.

However, I also don't care about slow leveling. As for my friends passing me, that's why sidekick and exemplar are for. I've got friends that have passed my level and I still play with them. This game is by far superior to all other MMO's I've played in that respect. :)

Chris

Jade_Dragon

06-03-2005, 04:14 PM

I wouldn't say out of the question. It's hard to FINISH a Task Force, I'd say. But you can get in one. Even if you drop out halfway through. I've been in a few myself, though, and so far I haven't been the first to drop it, it's just fallen apart on its own.

It sounds to me like this guy is a casual player, but so caught up in the FOTM frenzy that he keeps creating alts to try and beat the nerfs. My characters are in the 25-30s too, but I keep playing them. And it's true, the mid game is where it gets good. Striga's great, and now I've started on Orenbega, and some other storylines that sound good. I'm not losing interest, I'm still waiting to see what's around the corner.

Masked Revenger

06-03-2005, 04:20 PM

I wouldn't say out of the question. It's hard to FINISH a Task Force, I'd say. But you can get in one. Even if you drop out halfway through. I've been in a few myself, though, and so far I haven't been the first to drop it, it's just fallen apart on its own.

This is true, and I've done this, but there's only so many times you can join a TF and not finish it. It's disipointing.

Chris

inkblaster

06-03-2005, 04:54 PM

Ok, if you haven't yet, try Positron, compared to that, all other task forces that I've been on are super fast.

But yeah, it depends on the group and such, but I consider myself a casual gamer and I can get in the occasional task force, which really helps to level.

There are...other...tricks....to get through some levels.
*cough*glowy xp*cough*

Randomus

06-03-2005, 05:30 PM

I like the concept of Kheldians, they just suffer from a lack of class distinction and no one ever wants to team with them.

Xanatos

06-03-2005, 05:33 PM

I like the concept of Kheldians, they just suffer from a lack of class distinction and no one ever wants to team with them.

The lack of class-distinction is what I like about them. The "swiss army knife" element of the Kheldians makes them fun to play for me :)

In regards to the second problem - well I've only noticed that pre level 20. When the "R U HEALOR?" mentality is in full swing. At later levels people don't mind teaming with me and my fan club. (read: Quantum gunners)

Remianen

06-03-2005, 05:36 PM

Jade_Dragon

06-03-2005, 06:32 PM

Well, I'm not going to cast aspersions as to the writer's intelligence or the validity of their complaints (since IMO, EVERY complaint is valid at least to the person making it) since I've been hearing similar lamentations from so-called "casual players" for almost a decade now. Folks who want the game's best rewards even though they only play 10 hrs a week (or some similar absurdly low number). God forbid a game developer give ingame rewards for those who spend time INGAME!

I've never agreed with that. First of all, that's a concept unique to RPGs. You don't see a guy walk up to Pac-Man and get a character that moves half as fast, and gets only half the points, just because hasn't played the game as often as some other guy who plays every day, for two hours a day. It's not even related to PEN AND PAPER RPGs, if someone comes into a campaign late, he is given a character close to the level of his teammates, and if he can't play every day, his friends "drag along" his character so he can keep up.

If anything, the concept of sidekicking was created to bridge the gap between the casual player and the powergamer, and lessen the penalty of not playing as often. In my opinion, that's not meant to be a huge penalty, as the concept of an RPG is to DEVELOP your character, not to develop your character FASTER than everyone else. If you levelled according to the passage of real time, it would still be an RPG, although clearly not an RPG the way the term is "understood". The only reason levelling doesn't work that way is that it isn't tied to the player's accomplishments, it doesn't encourage him to succeed. But it is not necessary for level to be tied DIRECTLY to effort.

(And in fact, it isn't, since it can be argued that power builds give the player an advantage and thus "earns" him levels that he did not pay for with effort)

As for whiny? heh I've seen far, FAR worse ([...] "Why is my EXPLORER weaker in combat than a WARRIOR?").

Ah, I see you have played Earth and Beyond...

The problem with Earth and Beyond is that it was only 1/3 of a game. It was originally designed to have three elements, a combat element, a trade element, and an exploration element. The only one of those three that was ever successfully implemented was the combat element. The exploration element was only barely implemented, in the form of mining, and was only acceptable in the last few months of the game. The trade element was NEVER successfully implemented.

Now, before you say, "The crafting in Earth and Beyond was fine", crafting was not part of the trade element. It was part of the combat element. Crafting was designed to provide warriors with weapons and equipment that they required in order to engage in combat. That makes it part of the combat element. Traders were unable to build things for anyone but players that wished to engage in combat, and they got no XP for doing that. So the only trade element was the lousy trade routes.

Each of the three major class types were meant to excel in one of the three different areas of the game. Warriors were the best at combat, Traders the best at trading, and Explorers the best at mining. Combat was the only element that MATTERED, though, and so Explorers and Traders found themselves left out. They couldn't compete at combat, and had nothing to do in their own area, and so they rightly felt that the game was imbalanced. Particularly when the only way to earn XP in their chosen area was to run Jobs.

Fortunately, City of Heroes has avoided this problem by wisely making ONE game. There is no trading here, no exploring, no crafting, no resource gathering. We are all superheros, we all earn our XP the same way. We arrest bad guys. That means we ALL are equally good at arresting bad guys. There's nothing wrong with saying, "Why is my Scrapper weaker in combat than a (Fire) Tanker?" Or "Why is my Blaster weaker in combat than a Scrapper?" Because combat is all there is to do.

This doesn't mean we all arrest bad guys the same way. Controllers may not be as good at soloing as Scrappers. Presumably, that's because they have an easier time finding teams. That doesn't mean that Scrappers have to be MUCH better, but we shouldn't be surprised if they're a little better. Not like an Warrior in combat compared to a Explorer in combat, that's a LOT better, not a little. But in a group, the Controller should be very, very helpful, and be able to gain lots of XP. (Note that even in a group, the Explorer rarely provided anything to the combat)

I liked the article overall since it wasn't the usual, vanilla, dripping with fanboi-ism I've run into on various CoH sites. Love or hate the game itself but EQ1's community had as many facets as the proverbial prism. From 'haters' to 'fanbois' and pretty much everything in between. But that may have just been a result of the critical mass of folks playing that game during its heyday. I'm kinda hoping CoH develops that kind of variety in its community (as well as huge info sites like Allakhazam and Lucy and vibrant class/AT sites like the Safehouse and such).

I'm not sure what you are implying here. Are you saying that no one on this site has ever been critical of CoH? Have you never read any of the many argument threads that have been started here? Are you calling us all "fanbois"?

When I go to a site dedicated to a particular theme, I expect the majority of the comments about it to be positive. That's just common sense. There will be the occasional criticism, sure, but it seems to me that if a person has a serious enough problem with a topic, he won't seek out boards that discuss it. The majority of people here are here because they like City of Heroes, although they may not like one or two things about it. But for the most part, their attitude is mostly positive.

So if you consider "vanilla" to mean any site that does not consist predominantly of negative posts, then I'm afraid this is the wrong board for you. I would even be concerned if 50% of the posts turned negative. I would be concerned that for one reason or another, trolling attacks had started within the community. Such a community would no longer be a "healthy" community, I would consider it on the decline, and likely to die out within a short time. Even if this decline was because the community had moved on from the topic, and was simply sticking together because of past alliances, I would probably, myself, move on.

Xielos

06-03-2005, 07:14 PM

I would be concerned that for one reason or another, trolling attacks had started within the community. Such a community would no longer be a "healthy" community, I would consider it on the decline, and likely to die out within a short time. Even if this decline was because the community had moved on from the topic, and was simply sticking together because of past alliances, I would probably, myself, move on.

Yeah, like this (http://www.ebportal.com) hellhole.

I agree with everything Jade said above (especialy the EnB parts).

For the most part, I agree with what that snarky guy said, this game is starting to decline. PvP has affected the rest of the game, even though its only a small part of it.

iggy880

06-03-2005, 07:19 PM

ColdCut, I agree about Synapse, with the hell hole, and similar attitude (and girly magazine there)

Masked Revenger

06-03-2005, 07:36 PM

Jade_Dragon

06-03-2005, 07:54 PM

Is Earth and Beyond still around? I beta tested that game. It had great potential, but seemd unfinished to me, and it also appeared that the Dev's were in a rush to get it on the shelves, so I never bought it after the beta. Too bad, because I liked it, and was looking forward to the complete game.

Chris

It closed down, about a year ago I think. I don't remember exactly, but my feeling is that it shut down around the time CoH started. I was there until the very end, but it was really sad the way it ended like that.

In all honesty, it had the potential to be a really great game, but the designers who created it never got the chance to run it. Another group was brought in, and I feel that's the main reason for the way it went so predominantly combat. The folks who took it over, although I'm probably one of the few people who thought they did the best they could, really never understood the concept. They obviously thought of it as a traditional combat/crafting/resource gathering game, when in fact it was meant to be far more than that. If they'd dropped the three-tiered XP system, and given the Trader and Explorer more strength in battle, it probably would have worked.

I would have liked to have seen the Scout, (the Terran Explorer) Privateer (Progen Trader, doubtless a mega-tank) and Seeker. (Jenquai Trader - what would have been cooler than searching the cosmos for ancient relics?) But they would never have worked in the game it developed into.

Remianen

06-03-2005, 08:33 PM

Masked Revenger - Earth and Beyond was murdered. Electronic Arts bought Westwood Studios (the developers of E&B and SO many other great titles), dismantled it, moved the E&B staff to California and Austin, TX (from Las Vegas where Westwood was headquarted) then cancelled the game. Main reason is because EA is great with console games and their derivatives (Madden, NBA Live, etc) but they suck when it comes to running an MMO (see: Motor City Online, Ultima Online, and the like). They expected E&B to do EQ-like numbers straight out of the gate and that wasn't a realistic expectation.

Jade Dragon - Now, before you go on assumptions, let me say one thing. The statement I said was "VARIOUS" CoH sites. At no time did I make any reference to CoHGuru. In fact, it's the variety of opinion and wide open discussion that drew me to this site (in its previous incarnation). But there are other CoH sites where you would think Cryptic had found the cure for AIDS or cancer or something by the way folks sing praises about it. I have no problem with people praising a game they enjoy. It's when someone offers a dissenting opinion and is basically shouted down with the text equivalent of holding your hands over your ears and shouting "lalalalalala" at the top of your lungs that bothers me.

Also, at no time did I say anything negative or positive posts predominating. But without BOTH viewpoints represented, there can be no real discussion or exchange of views. It's that give and take that makes things interesting for me. So a site that is dominated by one side to the exclusion of the other, is boring and "vanilla" to me.

As to my Earth and Beyond comparisons, I stand by them. Even though the game was indeed one-sided (though I do remember getting trade xp with my TT building or destroying various things for recipes, but it's been a while and I could be mistaken), that didn't take away from the fact that warriors should be the best at combat (and in their proper order: Progen then Terran then Jenquai). Because mining gave crap explore xp while combat gave insane combat xp comparitively does not detract from the basic fact that a warrior should fight better than a slight of build Explorer with far less firepower on his ship. Remember, there was a time when the Terran Enforcer could outkill the Progen Warrior due to range (remember missile kiting? I sure do!). All reward, almost no risk (firing on mobs from beyond their reaction radius so you could kill them and they'd never even aggro you). But in that case, you beseech the devs to develop the other 2/3s of the game. You don't lament the fact that your "spiritual explorer" (i.e. Jenquai) wasn't as good at pure mindless killing than the warrior race's Warrior class (the Progen Warrior). To do so is folly. But to say the JE had nothing to offer groups, I'd have to disagree. My wormhole bot's reactor buff was always welcome, especially with energy hungry PW weapons and such).

I've been playing these games a long time and I have never been of the mind that someone who plays less than someone else, deserves better rewards. This opinion was further reinforced during my time in EverQuest. If you knew that you'd have to spend a great deal of time with a certain number of people to obtain a reward, that's FAR different than not having the reward available to you at all (which is what many people tried to say). If the time and/or people required aren't available to you now, wait a year or two and mudflation would make it more attainable (in less time with fewer people). But just as in RL, the person who puts in the time and effort should have first dibs on the reward. Power builds don't even factor in since you still have to put in the time to get the levels to MAKE the power build. Haven't heard of too many power builds at level 1. Besides, today's power build is tomorrow's nerf (or neglect) victim. How long's it been since this was "City of Blasters"?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I wasn't talking about Pen & paper RPGs or Xbox or The Bard's Tale. If it wasn't about time spent ingame earning rewards, why not take a Diablo-esque turn and just let us have everything we want right at the beginning?

Jade_Dragon

06-03-2005, 09:21 PM

I have no problem with people praising a game they enjoy. It's when someone offers a dissenting opinion and is basically shouted down with the text equivalent of holding your hands over your ears and shouting "lalalalalala" at the top of your lungs that bothers me.

Yes, but that's the whole point. There was no dissenting opinion in that article. It was one person who could control all of the content. Although I did notice that some of the replies attempted to put a positive spin on it.

I get your point, though. I realized you weren't talking about here. The way you worded it, though, it was like you had never heard any criticism of the game until that post.

As to my Earth and Beyond comparisons, I stand by them. Even though the game was indeed one-sided (though I do remember getting trade xp with my TT building or destroying various things for recipes, but it's been a while and I could be mistaken)

The XP was negligible, and certainly not enough to significantly effect the levelling rate of a Trader. You may have exaggerated the impact of it in your memory. At any rate, most Trade XP was gained from either trade routes, trade jobs, or loot.

that didn't take away from the fact that warriors should be the best at combat (and in their proper order: Progen then Terran then Jenquai). Because mining gave crap explore xp while combat gave insane combat xp comparitively does not detract from the basic fact that a warrior should fight better than a slight of build Explorer with far less firepower on his ship.

I'm not arguing that. But again, what SHOULD have happened is the three tier XP system should have been dropped, and all six classes adjusted to level at the same rate, perhaps by giving the same XP for mining as for combat. The way the system was designed, the Explorer SHOULD have gotten the vast majority of his XP from mining, but that didn't change the fact that he didn't.

If it had been the other way around, and mining gave huge XP and combat only a slight amount, it would have been the Warriors complaining. Possibly not that "we should be able to mine as well as Explorers" but there would have been a complaint, and it would have been quite valid.

Remember, there was a time when the Terran Enforcer could outkill the Progen Warrior due to range (remember missile kiting? I sure do!). All reward, almost no risk (firing on mobs from beyond their reaction radius so you could kill them and they'd never even aggro you). But in that case, you beseech the devs to develop the other 2/3s of the game. You don't lament the fact that your "spiritual explorer" (i.e. Jenquai) wasn't as good at pure mindless killing than the warrior race's Warrior class (the Progen Warrior). To do so is folly.

You've wandered off topic here. We are talking about explorers. You are talking about the Terran Warrior. That's a totally different issue. And in fact, if it weren't for the Terran advantage in gaining Trade XP, there would have been no problem with his matching the Progen Warrior. Two warriors, same ability. That's like saying SR Scrappers shouldn't gain XP at the same rate as Regen Scrappers.

What I was pointing out is that the majority of the players, as well as the devs, made the same assumptions about the game. They didn't understand the concept of the three tiered XP system, and thus thought the problem was the Explorer's lack of combat ability. The solution was not to make the Explorer stronger, as they suggested, but to make mining a better source of XP. Which they actually accomplished, by the end. And the Explorers were fairly happy with the changes, as evidenced by the reduction in complaints about combat.

But to say the JE had nothing to offer groups, I'd have to disagree. My wormhole bot's reactor buff was always welcome, especially with energy hungry PW weapons and such).

"Wormhole bot"? You don't sound like you felt all that useful to me. And remember that the energy transfer ability was a DEVICE, which was not integral to the class. The Explorer's primary contribution to a group was Group Cloak and Environment shield. Meanwhile, Traders provided much more useful capabilities, and more of them. This was something that was discussed intensively on the E&B boards. (In fact, the discussion of Environment Shield's sound effect is remarkably similar to the complaints about Force Field)

I've been playing these games a long time and I have never been of the mind that someone who plays less than someone else, deserves better rewards.

I never said "better" rewards. I said that the reward does not necessarily have to be PROPORTIONAL to time spent. Of course you get rewards for playing longer. But the reward should not be so great that someone who cannot play as OFTEN as you can no longer keep up with you. As I said, that's one purpose of sidekicking.

I do agree that there is a big difference between saying "I can't get the reward" and "I am unable to put in the time and effort to get the reward". However, it should be expected that SOME reward is given even for lesser effort. While I don't agree with the people who expect to be able to do everything, even if they don't wish to powergame or participate in raids, I also don't think the rewards for those activities should be THAT MUCH GREATER. They should be just great enough to encourage that behavior, and no more.

The problem comes when the rewards become so great that the content has to be increased in order to balance it. The rewards then no longer are rewards, they are required in order to experience that content. I am sure you remember this happening in Earth and Beyond, it went through that cycle several times.

Power builds don't even factor in since you still have to put in the time to get the levels to MAKE the power build. Haven't heard of too many power builds at level 1.

I don't get what you are saying here. Just because you put in the time to level from 1 to 10, that doesn't give you the right to level faster than me from 10 to 20. I ALSO put in the time to level from 1 to 10. I should have the same reward as you (even though I may have taken longer to earn it) and yet I do not, because you have a power build and I don't.

The only possible "reward" you are entitled to is due to your knowledge of the game and how to build characters. BUT THAT IS NOT A FACTOR THAT IS DETERMINED BY TIME SPENT. You can buy the game this morning, read a few posts in the forums this afternoon, and be powerlevelling a FOTM to 50 by tonight. You've "earned" a reward without spending any time or effort on it. (Not compared to someone who actually plays the game and learns by experience, anyway)

Besides, today's power build is tomorrow's nerf (or neglect) victim. How long's it been since this was "City of Blasters"?

That's not the point. Whether or not today's FOTM is tomorrow's FOTM, there will always be a FOTM. So there will always be power combos that earn larger "rewards" for less time. And so you can't relate rewards to time.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I wasn't talking about Pen & paper RPGs or Xbox or The Bard's Tale. If it wasn't about time spent ingame earning rewards, why not take a Diablo-esque turn and just let us have everything we want right at the beginning?

Ah, the old "why don't we just give you a win button" argument. As usual, any disagreement can be boiled down to an extreme. Either you agree with me, or you want everything up front, earned all at once. Any "grey area" is impossible. The possibility that I might want to earn XP at a slightly lower rate than you, but not too much lower, is disregarded. After all, there are always only two possibilities.

Emerald Sky

06-03-2005, 11:33 PM

That whole Doom bit was originally used to describe people who were unrelentingly negative about the game in general, and has since been co-opted by people who can't see anything wrong with anything. Seeing as the Guru community is not that simplistic, I would appreciate it if you would keep the main board stuff off of this site.

Umm...no.

Sorry if me speaking my mind offends you, but I'll say what I want to say, when I want to say it. If that article reminded me of all of the doom posts, then that article reminds me of the doom posts. Who are you to tell me otherwise?